PBEM: A Soaring Spirit

[Prof. Garfield]

Disclosure: A couple turns ago the Etruscans made a payment of gold to another civ, but I seem to have incorrectly changed the Etruscan gold level. I didn't correct this last turn because I wanted to check that I wasn't given a partial reimbursement. I didn't use the discrepency as a turn of "borrowed" money, but I've now corrected the error as close as I can. If you notice a gold discrepency when reviewing the game later, this is why.

Etruscans establish the colony of Procida.

No World Events.

Athenians send a battering ram to Piraeus which kills the defending Strategos!

Severely damaged Corinthian Pentreconter defeated at (225,93).

***************

I took a risk with the defence of Piraeus, so well played McMonkey!

I'm not sure what to do about this game. I think McMonkey is in a dominant position (well played) and I will be glad to concede defeat in a few turns if he can successfully press the advantage (and no miracle happens for the Athenians/Spartans).

I can see why McMonkey would like to make peace and build, that's the part of civ that I like the most as well. I can see why Northerner would want to fight it out now, since Corinth-Ionia is looking to be unstoppable in the east, and a PBEM is a big commitment if you don't think you have a chance. I'm kind of in the middle. I'm pleased with how I played so far, and I wouldn't mind building up Athens and the Etruscans some more, but I'm not overly keen on spending months on a game I don't think I can make a respectable showing in. I would happily play a few weeks to allow the winner to savour his victory (and make sure I am defeated), but hundreds of turns is a bit much. In the current situation, Athens needs Sparta as an ally if Corinth and Ionia are allied, so there is no point in a separate peace (not to mention I would be annoyed if Sparta made a separate peace).

I think the situation is, in part, due to the fact that we're playing with 3 players and not 6. It's a lot easier to be a weak civ when the dominant civs have to worry about fighting each other.

I think my preference might be to wrap this game up, make some changes to the scenario, and try again. Maybe make a different version of the scenario when 3 people play instead of six.

 

[McMonkey]

I say play on and fight it out for now. You never know what might happen. I have just lost one of my Strategos (their Achilles heel would seem to be their high defense that means they fight first when their stack/city is attacked). Sparta still has a Strategos I believe and the course of the game could be drastically altered if, for example, the Sparta and Athens gained more Strategos. I may look dominant in the east, but I'm going to struggle to trade (one reason I decided to go for Pireaus - to force Athenian ships to the coast). I would like to play on for a bit longer to see how things pan out, if for no other reason that it will give us time to think of ideas for the Test of Time version. If you guys don't feel you want to continue I wouldn't expect you to do so out of politeness.

I have been looking at the Test of Time version and how to balance up the play for three players in the format we have now (as finding six players for PBEMs is going to be tough). I think the Ionian cities could be redistributed and a new Syracusan civ takes its place. Other starting cities can be reallocated between Sparta-Corinth and Athens to get a better balance. The current setup was fairly historically accurate but gave Corinth and Ionia too much easy access to goody huts and rich cities in Anatolia and the Balkans. That can be addressed in the Test of Time version.

 

[McMonkey]

Alternatively, I am willing to drastically reduce the number of Corinthian-Ionian cities by giving some to Sparta-Athens and many more to the Minor Cities to keep this version going. Of course, the likes of Methone and Piraeus will be returned to their original owners. We have put quite a lot of time and effort and it would be a shame to waste that. Basically, we could go for a more far-reaching version of the peace treaty I offered before and get to a stage where the three players are balanced and then start as if were beginning the scenario again.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Northerner told me he felt that he didn't play the early game very well, so perhaps he should weigh in on how much he'd like to continue the game if changes are made. There is an argument for crafting a new scenario loosely based on how things happened to turn out in our game and continuing from that. A sort of "accelerated start" for this scenario.

If we stop now, we can discuss the things that worked well and worked poorly in the scenario without worrying about giving away strategic information. If we can make balance improvements to a TOTPP version, it might be best to get started on that rather than sink more time into this game. Maybe consider some form of catchup mechanic so that early advantages don't become decisive.

I still wouldn't mind slugging things out for a few more turns. How about this: we slug it out until 700 BC, without any more peace negotiations, and see if a turnaround happens, or if McMonkey can successfully press his advantage. That will conclude this game, unless everyone feels we should continue. Meanwhile, we can decide what we'll do next.

 

[McMonkey]

I'm good with that.

I would consider this. What are the totals in terms of city sizes and units between Corinth-Ionia vs the other four nations (i still have to guard Sicily in case the Phoenicians attack)? Corinth-Ionia may have a lot of cities, but these must be guarded against the other players as well as the Lydians, meaning I have fewer troops to put into the field army. I noe only have one Strategos, the same as Sparta.

 

[McMonkey]

CORINTHIANS
Philace (?) in Thessaly lost to the Lydians.

IONIANS
Spartan Pentreconter (302,102) and Transport Ship (305,103) near Samos sunk as well as another Transport Ship near Naxos, Sicily (116,118)

Amphipolis in Thrace captured.

The badly damaged Battering Ram that killed one of my Strategos is killed next to Piraeus.

Carystus captured. One Hoplite, one Slave and two Pentreconters destroyed. Two Thracians who popped up also dispatched.

 

[Northerner]

Should Athens fall to the Corinthian alliance before Miletus falls the Spartans, the Gerousia will accept the Corinthian terms to peace.

(I'm perfectly fine with continuing the game. The fact I didn't try and seize on the advantage that exploration gives early on is no ones fault but mine.

The Corinthians seemed very sure they could handily defeat the Spartan/Athenian alliance. I was inclined to believe they were right, and I saw no reason to accept the Corinthians handicapping themselves in order to give Sparta a chance, having mismanaged Sparta a bit. )

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Etruscans found Elea.

Ionian Pentreconter defeated at (78,40).

No World Events.

Battering Ram kills Mercenary Hoplite outside Zancle.

 

[McMonkey]

CORINTHIANS
No news

IONIANS
Cyzicus on the south coast of the Sea of Marmara captured.

Athenian Pentreconter near Syracusae (119,129) sunk. One Veteran Ionian Pentreconter lost.

Sunium captured and Athens almost completely cut off. Two Hoplites and two (or was it one!?) Transport Ships destroyed. No Ionian losses.

I think you may have overestimated the strength of the Corinthian-Ionian League somewhat. We do hold an advantage in terms of unit & city numbers, but were certainly not the all conquering horde you may have imagined, especially as many of our troops are engaged in garrison duties in the face of Lydian armies and Hellenic raiders. I'm glad to hear you're willing to fight on.

 

[Northerner]

Miletus falls.

No news from Carthage.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Estruscans establish the colony of Mylae.

World Events:

A new Strategos has risen to lead the Spartans to victory.

Athenian Hoplite defeats Ionian Mercenary Hoplite and slave at (244,48).

 

[McMonkey]

Is the tide turning?

 

[McMonkey]

The Corinthian-Ionian League once again proposes peace negotiations. This war is crippling our economy. Both the Corinthian and Ionian capitals have fallen to the enemy. Lydian hordes are rampaging through our hinterlands unchallenged. Our people are tired of war!

Would Sparta consider using the existing proposals as a starting point to work from? Of course, the deal will need to be modified to take into account cities such as Miletus and Piraeus. We are willing to concede territory to bring about peace. Sparta has had its major military victory and now appears to be in the ascendency whit 2:1 Strategos. Corinth-Ionia is still very capable of fighting on, it just doesn't have the desire to do so. What say you?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

It's hard to tell who is or isn't winning without knowing the quantity of troops and how they are deployed. It is easy to see your own weaknesses and imagine that your enemy can easily exploit them, while your enemy is trying to shore up his own weaknesses for fear that you might try to exploit them. Offering an opinion might reveal information to your opponent.

The Athenians can attest to the fact that Strategos are not invulnerable when attacking, and are vulnerable if on the front lines while defending.

 

[Northerner]

Sparta is prepared to sit with their brothers and speak of peace. Still, to let the tide break on the unknown shores of a peace with a weakened enemy seems disrespectful to our dead brothers.


(A veteran Strategos can very consistently take out at least two hoplites behind city walls per turn. Unvetted, they are far less reliable. In fact, I'm sure the War Academy wonder in Athens is worth more than any other wonder in the game. It just changes every calculation so much. Siege equipment and hoplites, veteran right out of the box! I wish I'd tried rushing ahead to build it.)

 

[Prof. Garfield]

War Academy and Lighthouse are both well underpriced for their effect, especially since barracks aren't available until later and port facilities aren't available at all (and most ships are coastal).

Black sea grain trade (Pyramids) is also likely to be powerful given how far up the tech tree Republic and Democracy are.

Twin Monarchy should probably be weakened as well (you can increase corruption and waste in Communism by changing an entry in the rules txt) or moved further up the tech tree.

Attacking hoplites with Strategos can still be risky, since the FP is higher than HP in this scenario, the second Strategos I lost still had enough HP to allow it 3 movement points.

 

[McMonkey]

I'm not entirely sure what Sparta means with this ambiguous statement. Are you saying you are willing to negotiate, or that you need to do a little more killing before that would seem proper?

 

[Northerner]

The Spartans tended to be quite cryptic in their communications.

I've been trying to be a bit Spartan in communications throughout.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Just play, McMonkey. If the Spartans want peace, they can come forward with a treaty proposal or a modification to the existing proposal. Or, we can just fight it out until the situation becomes such that a treaty is no longer necessary.

 

[McMonkey]

CORINTHIANS
No news

IONIANS
The Minor city of Aenus occupied. Samos liberated. Andros taken from Athens - One Hoplite killed, one Veteran Thessalian Cavalry lost.

Apologies for the long delay. I was waiting for clarification of the Spartan position and lost focus. I'm back on board fully now.