Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread

Much is said of Sparta's control over its citizens. A child was inspected at birth, if there was any defects, it would be killed (exposure, the process of leaving an unwanted child outside to die) was common throughout Greece, but it wasn't seen as killing because the baby could technically be adopted by anyone passing by. Sparta took exposure to the extreme. Instead of leaving a child to die, they made sure it was killed by throwing it off a cliff. When a male was 7 (?) they were forced into a camp of hell ;). It was this brutal training that made a Spartan what he was. Sparta had no money, as the state controlled all the resources. Sparta had 2 kings to control the military and religious functions (these kings would prevent one person from becoming too powerful). At home, a council would make decisions and an assembly of common people would agree to the decisions (there was no debate, that was their job). However, everyone had to answer to a judicial branch (the kings must stand trial every year). At least, that's how I think I remembered hearing how it worked.

I would actually differentiate between the Spartan Oligarchy and the regular Oligarchy. The regular oligarchy would be what Sparta's allies had (much less harsh). The Spartan Oligarchy would probably be similar to Facism in Civ3: Conquests. This government has a faster worker speed (since all your workers are Helots, this would make them work near normal speed), able to maintain a large army for free (10 per Metropolis), and no WW (obviously this wouldn't be included, give them WW). The penalties are kind of severe, but seem to fit Sparta. You loose population for joining the government (ideally Sparta would already be in the government and not have this unrealistic penalty), When you capture a city it looses population and doesn't produce culture until your citizens gain the majority (The loss of citizens can represent the 30 Tyrants' rain of terror in Athens. The lack of culture works perfectly if culture flips represents rebellions, since the Athenians rebelled against them and took back the city). The last penalty is forced rushing, which can represent Sparta's control over its resource without the need of money.

I think, whatever is chosen as the stats for the opposing governments, they should pretty much be opposite. Athens would get lots of extra commerce and have payed labor, while Sparta gets little money while maintaning a large army.

Just my thoughts.

Edit: I figured Thesally would have more horses than any other region, not necessarily improved horses).
 
thessaly was the only Greek area in the period before macedon to take pride in its cavalry, and it showed on the battle feild, as iason of Phylae, whos army featured more then few ;) compliments of cavalry helped drive the Spartans from Theban territory in the hectic times of the post-pelo. war era...
 
Expect me to post map w/ updates in 2 hrs...

I'll have it tomorrow... I had previous commitments that I had forgotten about... How are these for Spartan Oligarchy stats?:

Prerequisite: None (How do I set it so only Sparta can be this govt.?)
Corruption and waste: minimal
Cost per unit: 1 (or 0? Spartans fought for the state.)
Rate Cap: 10
Worker Rate: 2
Assimilation Chance: 2%
Draft Limit: 2 or 3?
Mil. Police Limit: 4
Diplomats/Spies:Reg./Reg.
Town/City/Metro.:3/5/10
War Weariness: Low (Spartans= disciplined)
Hurrying production: Forced Labor
 
Prerequisite: None (How do I set it so only Sparta can be this govt.?)

Scenario menu, costum player properties, than select player properties from the same menu. Choose a player (like player 1) and set civ (Sparta), than choose starting government (in the middle of the screen).

Corruption and waste: minimal

What about Communal? Would communal be too damaging for this to be plausible?

Cost per unit: 1 (or 0? Spartans fought for the state.)

I would make it have a cost per unit just to have some balance. Spartan troops should be superior in quality, not necessarily number (Athens gets a lot of commerce per turn to support the army)

Rate Cap: 10
Worker Rate: 2
Assimilation Chance: 2%

Maybe a bit high for realism, might be fair for balance.

Draft Limit: 2 or 3?

Probably 2, I never use draft, but the unhappiness of 3 could be annoying (and damaging to an AI Sparta)

Mil. Police Limit: 4
Diplomats/Spies:Reg./Reg.
Town/City/Metro.:3/5/10
War Weariness: Low (Spartans= disciplined)
Hurrying production: Forced Labor

Overall sounds good. Play testing would be the best test, though
 
Originally posted by Xen
I said awile ago in chat if the mods put hot sauce on thire hotdogs, along with other garneshes I wouldnt say the word "cataphract" for a week ;)- they never took me up on it though...

You should have told me! I just finished eating a hotdog. Anyway, Stop talking about your undying love for cataphracts every single second. People are getting annoyed...
 
will do Cheiftess

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A)I agree comunal would suit the Spartans best- I have heard that in ancient times, the Spartans had hard times "over seas", or evne in other parts of greece, as they were basked in luxury, and often...rected wildlly to it, but sufferd withdrawl when taken from it- I owuld think that local Spartan leaders, if having been introduced to such things, would go some grest lengths to get just a little of them....
 
Xen, have you read the story of how Lycurgus introduced those laws in Sparta - people were after his head. Therefore switching into Sparta's government should create unhappiness.

Also, Sparta should not get too many happy people either, so if there is a way to limit this...
 
I'm not the one who came up with the idea for there being no unhappyness :p.and yes, i know of Lycurgus (but I care more for the Athenian side of things, as well as the real map, and unit content of the scenario)
 
All right, communal it is... EXpect to see this here this afternoon...Darn school.
 
The Spartans weren't exactly known for the quality of their diplomats and spies - perhaps make 'em Conscript? It's not going to have any much effect gameplay-wise, but it's a bit extra flavour.

I guess the Spartans are going to get both Spartan and Perioeci Hoplites - some careful balancing is going to be necessary to make both worthwhile to build ...
 
Out of curiosity, how much of Asia Minor is going to be included, and is Crete making an appearance?
 
Originally posted by The Last Conformist
The Spartans weren't exactly known for the quality of their diplomats and spies - perhaps make 'em Conscript? It's not going to have any much effect gameplay-wise, but it's a bit extra flavour.

Definately. Spartans were so bad at diplomacy it caused them some problems. Lysander of Sparta (I think it was him) was unique in that he actually had some diplomatic skills
 
Okay, conscript...If anyone could tell me some cities to put in Sicily, Italy, and Asia Minor, the map would be done very shortly.
Edit: Yes ,Patrokolos, Crete will be a neutral state. Asia Minor will be shown all the way up to a little past Cyprus.

Edit2::help: For some reason, victory point locations appear where I don't want them to! when I open the editor, thet're not there, but when I play a test game, they appear! what's up with this???:confused:
 
here is a good sicily map :)
 

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Originally posted by The Last Conformist
The Spartans weren't exactly known for the quality of their diplomats and spies - perhaps make 'em Conscript? It's not going to have any much effect gameplay-wise, but it's a bit extra flavour.

I guess the Spartans are going to get both Spartan and Perioeci Hoplites - some careful balancing is going to be necessary to make both worthwhile to build ...

I suggest making the Spartaites as a last availible elite troop for sparta, and VERY expensive- along with the Theban and Athenian "elites" (Epheboii corps for Athens, and the sacred band for Thebes)

the lesser hoplites come before them, and are still worth buiding even after the others become availible as a "fodder" unit- somthing to defend the cities with, and bulk up the forces...
 
Now Asia Minor, and previewmap v2 will be complete!:goodjob:
 
I suggest holding off until one of the Persian empire can be found...I just happend to have this one "laying around" on my PC ;))
 

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All right:
map v2
I held off on the Persian Empire a bit like u said. Couldja help me with the popping up of the unwanted victory points? U'll need Piernik's Demosthenes and Agis III leaderheads.

P.S. Don't worry, I'll add more resources later...Could someopne point me to a resources map???
 
Originally posted by Xen
Athens special troops (epheboi corps)- have marine ability, and health bonus....
....elite unique hoplite (Epheboii)

Xen, the Athenian epheboi were NOT 'elite troops'.
They were young spotty skinny adolescents going through their first years of basic military training as they did their two years worth of 'national service' in the Athenian state.....the very OPPOSITE of elite troops'. ;)

A quick Google search resulted in the following:-

Artemis
--------
... At the age of sixteen he was enrolled , as custom ordered, in the ranks of the
Epheboi...
jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us/~jjackson/arte.html - 7k –

Ancient Greece
---------------
... on three sides by single arcades, and on the southern side by a double arcade that
enclosed the Ephebeion, the training ground for the epheboi (young men). ...
users.bigpond.net.au/bstone/greece.htm - 30k –

greektaining.html
-----------------
... In the second year, the young recruits called epheboi bought their sword, spear,
and shield, and started their real military training as hoplites. ...
create.nuevaschool.org/~four/greece/franklin/2b.html - 4k –

Sparta Town (topography)
---------------------------
... Both the Ephors and the Bidiaioi are five in number; it is customory for the latter
to hold competitions for the young men (epheboi), particularly the one held ...
www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/townsparta.html - 41k -

SARDIS
-------
... It was in multi-purpose bath-gymnasia that organizations of boys (paides), youths
(epheboi), young men (neoi), and elders (gerontes) engaged in education ...
www.philipharland.com/sardis.html - 23k -

330. 2001. The Encyclopedia of World History
------------------------------------------
... 330. Athens had recouped its strength under the financial administration of Lycurgus.
Compulsory military training for all youth (epheboi) was established. ...
www.bartleby.com/67/207.html - 23k -

[DOC]Troop types of Ancient warfare
----------------------------------
File Format: Microsoft Word 2000 - View as HTML
... These ‘epheboi’ marched in the rear of the phalanx and ran out between the ranks
of the hoplites to chase away enemy light troops shooting at the Phalanx. ...
www.htansw.asn.au/teach/ancienthistorydocs/ anc_trooptypes.doc

ClSt 200 - Homeric Hymns
--------------------------
... the goddess's temple. In later times, it also featured a regatta by the Epheboi, young men in military training. The Olympieia was ...
www.classics.upenn.edu/myth/hymns/calendar.php -

In fact, the Athenians didn't have any 'elite troops' like the Theban 'Sacred Band' or the Spartans. :)
 
Sooo....How's that non-elite unit comin' along? Kryten- would you be so kind as to test my map? U'll need Piernik's Agis III and Demosthenes leaderheads...
 
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