Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread

[Xen]

*note, the link on the three fleets of penteconters link fixed

 

[Pangur Bán]

Your source is fictional. It a old post for Ancient Sites forum (I used to be a member of that ) "3 fleets of pentecontors", Thucydides VI.103 says that the "Etruscans sent 3 50-oared ships, because of their hatred of Syracuse". - not fleets; such a claim is highly questionable anyway.

 

[Pangur Bán]

@Your other post (can't be assed doing point-for-point again), if you thought it was repetitive, you should not have bothered saying anything. I was asking questions of Amenhotep, to get his ideas and then you decided you'd answer. Fine, but then don't start moaning about me for it.

because the sceanrio is not to replay history, but to recreate it- what worth is the scenario if it has a set peice ending? we have to add the what if- even the extreamlly unlikelly ones[b/]

Well, such a scenario should have it's name changed to "The East-Central Mediterranean in the late 5th and early 4th Centuries"

The title of the thread made me think it'd be about the Peloponnesian War. A Peloponessian war scenario would not have a "set piece ending". You have two sides, the Delian League and the Peloponnesian League. There are routes to victory for each, and routes to defeat.

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by calgacus
Your source is fictional. It a old post for Ancient Sites forum (I used to be a member of that ) "3 fleets of pentecontors", Thucydides VI.103 says that the "Etruscans sent 3 50-oared ships, because of their hatred of Syracuse". - not fleets; such a claim is highly questionable anyway.

cool, but Thucydides isnt an Etruscan

besides i find it HIGHLLY unlikelly that the the inclusion of Etrusacans in Athneian forces was just made up one day- there must have been some offical support, I remember reading of etruscan land forces as well (in conjuctin with Oscan mecenaries as well)

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by calgacus
@Your other post (can't be assed doing point-for-point again), if you thought it was repetitive, you should not have bothered saying anything. I was asking questions of Amenhotep, to get his ideas and then you decided you'd answer. Fine, but then don't start moaning about me for it.

but then you would have to wait at least 'till mornign to get your answers

I hope your not annoyed by the whole point by point thing, its just how I like to post, though if you would like, I can stop

Originally posted by calgacus

Well, such a scenario should have it's name changed to "The East-Central Mediterranean in the late 5th and early 4th Centuries"

The title of the thread made me think it'd be about the Peloponnesian War. A Peloponessian war scenario would not have a "set piece ending". You have two sides, the Delian League and the Peloponnesian League. There are routes to victory for each, and routes to defeat.

the peloponnesian war is still the center peice conflict of the scenario besides, we would need a map extending further up Italy for East-Central med scenario (along with a more appeling name IMO)

 

[Xen]

also, this is unrelated ot thread, but ifigure everyone here will be interested any way-

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71105

the link is to a thread I posted abour how the trilogy "Achilles" a series of plays by Aeschylus has been re-discovered inside of a mummy

 

[The Last Conformist]

Damn, damn, damn! I write a long reply, and CFC dies on me! Ok, here we go again ...

Galgacus: If I understand you right, you think a Peloponnesian War scen ought to be a "pure war" scen? If so, I must disagree; political scheming, backstabbing and defection played a big role, and the only way to represent that is to have a mass of civs in a mess of alliances.

As Xen said, read the whole thread, and you'll find plenty of ideas on how to make major cities hard to take, make overseas communications critical for Athens, handle the Persian factor and many other things.

The idea for a "Persian Alliance" wonder for Sparta is good, and I even know how to improve it; make it require a resource only found in Persia, so that the Spartans can't build it if the end up in war with the Empire. It could be a luxury, called say "Eastern Goods", and Persia would have enough it could trade to any friendly civ, so that the Perso-Spartan alliance will not be prevented by Syracuse buying all of the resource or something equally stupid.

As regards the map, I'd like one including less of the Balkans and Italy, but we don't seem to have one available. The idea of leaving big parts of the map empty leaves me cold, not only because it would practically force us to disable setttling (which we'll regret the moment the AI starts razing cities), but also because it gives a false impression of the intra-Greek conflicts taking place in a vacuum. So, I do believe filling out the extra space with artificially weakened civs is the best solution, especially as it increases the opportunities for diplomacy and trade.

 

[Amenhotep7]

OKAAAAYYYYYY! Well, Iwas the one who originally thought of using Ossric's map, with only mainland Greece. THAT way, we wouldn't have the prob of who goes on the Italian Peninsula. But nooooooooo. WE had to use Magna Grecia C. And since nobody likes empty spaces, we're having this big and unnecessary convo about who shouldn't and should go where!:rant:

Okay. Done ranting. Now. Here's one reason we should keep everyone. TRADE!!! THAT would simulate the wealth of cities trading with those cities. Rome? Traded with Greeks et al. Itallic Greeks?-Trade Relations, Military aide. Carthage? I think helped in battle of Syracuse a little bit, trade. Cyrene? Trade, Supported Sparta's cause. Thracians? Trade.

Try and shoot that one down!

Persian Alliance? Wonderful idea! Xen's walls idea? Wonderful!

I could try to make my own map, with ver little of Thrace, Illyria, and Italian Peninusla but I've got others, and it's unnecessary.

 

[Xen]

good news-

I am working on the map today, and, I THINK it will be done, or at least most of it, by this evening

bad news-

I still cant figure out how to get territory to show up on the mini map

Really bad news-

I am doing in the C3C editor, but hopefully I can convert it back into a PTW format

 

[The Last Conformist]

On the minimap in the Editor?

Unless it's changed in , there's a little menu in the minimap window.

 

[The Last Conformist]

See, I even made an explanatory picture for you!

 

[Amenhotep7]

XEN! For the love of <insert whatever here>, no! Please! Please! Do it in the PTW editor! PTW won't let u save in Civ3, so I don't think Conquests will let you either!!!

Xen-
Halleluja![dance] You think it'll b done today? WONDERFUL! Once the map is done, we can make some REAL progress!

P.S. Hopefully, you might be able to import stuff into a PTW file.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Damn, damn, damn! I write a long reply, and CFC dies on me! Ok, here we go again ...

Galgacus: If I understand you right, you think a Peloponnesian War scen ought to be a "pure war" scen? If so, I must disagree; political scheming, backstabbing and defection played a big role, and the only way to represent that is to have a mass of civs in a mess of alliances.

Yeah, I agree. But not spanning the mediterranean.

I've skimmed most of the thread, and I'm just worried that you've all got your priorities wrong. If it is about the Perloponnesian War, then that should come first. Wonders, exotic-irrelevant civs should be discussed later. I'm trying to help you out. The makers of the Alexander the Great scenario decided to include all sorts of civs and wonders and other niceties irrelevant to the historical situation it was trying to reproduce. They spent months designing leaderleads for civs that shouldn't be there, etc, etc. The scenario has probably had more work done on it than most others....but it has never been made and has been, basically, abandoned.


I think it would be better if you all came up with a "no frills" scenario first, concentrating on the conflict: Athens, Sparta, units, resources, etc and bulid the more general stuff from that.

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
As regards the map, I'd like one including less of the Balkans and Italy, but we don't seem to have one available. The idea of leaving big parts of the map empty leaves me cold, not only because it would practically force us to disable setttling (which we'll regret the moment the AI starts razing cities), but also because it gives a false impression of the intra-Greek conflicts taking place in a vacuum. So, I do believe filling out the extra space with artificially weakened civs is the best solution, especially as it increases the opportunities for diplomacy and trade.

When you're playing the game, if you set it up right, you'll not notice that Rome isn't in Italy (for instance)...if you're worried about false impressions, then just make a note in the scenario introduction in bold

 

[Amenhotep7]

Umm, well calgacus, your suggestions are very nice. I'm the one who suggested using Ossric's map, because we wouldn't have to make unnecessary civs. But lo, everybody said we just had[/] to have Sicily. And to leave the Italian Peninsula completely uninhabited just makes me feel weird.:mutant:

 

[Xen]

yopur point for now are renderd mute, for with a few exceptions, the map is done!

now, before celibrations begin- it is NOT complete- HUGE peices of Persia are missinf, and I really need quality maps like the ones I have been using for the other ares to complete it...

a list of the civs-

Greek
Athens
Sparta
Thebes
Delphi
Crete
Rhodes
Thessaly
Itallic Greeks
Sicillian Greeks

"barbarian"
Thrace
Paionia
Illyrica

Italiot
Etruscans
Romans
Umbrians
Smanites

Middle eastern
Carthage
Persia

also, I am sorry to say that I didnt see you plead for me using the PTW editor until I was done Amenhotep- its all in the C3C editor...

but here is the map!

 

[Pangur Bán]

You could stick barb camps on it: Samnites, Latins, etc.

 

[Amenhotep7]

YAAAAAAAAY!!!!! *Cues celebration music**Calls president to make this a federal holiday**Carves massive statue of Xen to celebrate his good deed to this project*[dance][dance]

WONDERFUL! Soon, we'll have a testable version! Now: I'll be needing that map.

Edit: O...Darn. Well, I'm getting C3C for Xmas...Maybe then I can view it, unless you could show me screenies as to where to place the cities on a PTW map, Xen.

 

[Xen]

but that wouldnt stop the settler problem, which we need to beaciase, as The Last Conformist said, we may need them when/of the AI pillages cities... but we need to be able to stop the AI from building colonies- it wont be much of a problm, as the only real open terrtory will be north of Thrace- and, if need be, i'm sure I could find a roman map the covers that territory (as i have exahusted more or less my best greek maps) and I will still need some persian maps

not to mention the whole trade thing- remember, one of the reasson for the sicillian campaign was to secure for Athens, and more importantlly, deny to Sparta the islands goods

 

[Amenhotep7]

Why don't we make just 1 settler, and forbid building of any more?

 

[Xen]

whoops, forgot Cyrenica on the list of Greek civs