Permanent Revolution
- Thread starter JoeM
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JoeM
Imperator
It's a means of propaganda. It connotes the permanent need for change, the permanent need for vigilance, and looking for dissidents. Also, in my opinion, it connotes the new government as being the underdog, and people typically like the underdog.
Richard Cribb
He does monologues
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I assume we are talking about Trotsky's permanent revolution here rather than Marx' original term.
It is a rejection of the idea that backward countries in the 20th century needed a bourgeoise (sorry, couldn't find a way to avoid this word)revolution before socialism, since at this stage this class had used up its progressive potential. Instead that was the working class, whatever weak it may be, that had to take upon it the task to bring society forward.
"Permanent" doesn't mean forever, but that the struggle should continue even when more democratic rights as the right to vote was gained and not cease until a socialist society was a reality.
It is a rejection of the idea that backward countries in the 20th century needed a bourgeoise (sorry, couldn't find a way to avoid this word)revolution before socialism, since at this stage this class had used up its progressive potential. Instead that was the working class, whatever weak it may be, that had to take upon it the task to bring society forward.
"Permanent" doesn't mean forever, but that the struggle should continue even when more democratic rights as the right to vote was gained and not cease until a socialist society was a reality.
Xenocrates
Deity
Yes like 'war on terror'.
I always associate this with Mao rather than politics. Basically stability allows the formation of groups. Groups conspire and are a threat to the authority of the ruling class.
Mao prevented the formation of groups by using permanent revolution. He would stir things up by:
- Purges - and fear thereof.
- Preventing people from communicating by labelling them as rightists but not making it clear what a rightist is, so everyone could fall victim to the accusation. Rather like the phrase "unamerican". Making communication, the means by which groups form, impossible.
- Moving people around physically to break up families and societies.
- Supporting women's rights as a means to break his male competitors.
- Being hard to understand and producing enormous disinformation.
I see it as preventing the formation of ice by stirring the water. It's extremely effective, but hell to live under that kind of system. Luckily Macarthy didn't last all that long. As much as he's hated now, I read that the Venona programme had turned up a lot of real communist agitators in the US and there was actually a serious possibility of civil disorder and revolution. It seems the Russians were actually pulling the same stunts in the US in the 40's and 50's that they did in China in the 20's. Macarthy headed this off with a purge and a temporary 'permanent revolution'.
Venona project: http://www.answers.com/topic/venona-project
punkbass2000
Des An artiste
You could argue that democracy is a state of permanent revolution.
Xenocrates
Deity
Yes that's the nice way to do the same thing I guess.
I just re-read some of the VENONA documents again briefly and the controversy is whether the FBI fabricated and/or exagerated and/or misinterpreted the evidence. It's fascinating history; for 35 years the US and British governments were undertaking very serious counter-espionage work against what appears to be a very organised and threatening Soviet espionage programme in the West and almost nobody knows about it. This also links into the Gladio programme which was the bad side of the same coin.
Urederra
Mostly harmless
entrepreneurs, hard working people who risk their money to create for-profit enterprises. In other words, people who create companies that give employment and wealth to others.
Agreed, permanent meant until the ones who stir the revolution control the government.
If that were true, then the word "revolution" wouldn't have been used very much after the commies took control.
Urederra
Mostly harmless
It is used to export the revolution to other countries that are not so lucky to have a revolution by themselves, and therefore they need some help to stir things up until all those countries have commies in the office.
It is like proselitizing, but with tons of blood.
It is like proselitizing, but with tons of blood.
No, that's not true. In Mao's China, a person who didn't like the government or promoted something that the government didn't is antirevolutionary. The word "revolution" was used for the status quo in early communist China. It's commonly used as the status quo for communist countries. Which is completely stupid, but that's what they do.
"Evolution"
Urederra
Mostly harmless
Of course they call it antirevolutionary, once they are at the top, they cut every single speck of freedom, dissidence or opinion against them. It is what I am saying, revolution until they take over.
Orwell had to come to Spain and see the commies in action to realize how do they change the meaning of the words to brainwash the proletariat, (ops, sorry, the rest of the population)
That's the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying the word "revolution" is used for the status quo within a communist nation, after the communists have taken over. Anything that goes against the status quo after the commies have taken over is antirevolutionary. What I'm describing has nothing to do with starting revolutions in other countries.
If the whole world became communists, the "revolution" would still mean exactly what I say it means as described above.
Urederra
Mostly harmless
War is peace.
I Agree.
The fact that they start revolutions in other countries is something I added, just because I like to add facts I consider interesting.
Richard Cribb
He does monologues
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One is not supposed to feed the trolls, but sometimes it is unfortunately too hard to refrain from it.
Wealth, even interest-bearing wealth in a mature capitalist system is ultimately and primarily based on exploitation of both dead and living labour and nature. Without that, the property-owning class would have no "money to risk".
Also, the term bourgeoisie refer to the academics as well; like to people who led the little unimportant revolution in France. Robespierre and Danton was never "creating companies".
And finally, capitalism grew out from feudalism. The capitalist class pretty much grew up protected by feudal privileges.
While being an anti-Stalinist, Orwell was a socialist and strongly influenced by Trotskism. He "came to Spain" to fight in the civil war and joined the POUM. Later he writes sympatethically about the anarcho-syndicalists in Hommage to Catalonia, one of his best books. He retained his radical convictions for the rest of his life.You willl have your work cut out to include him in your
Falange.
I sometimes wish I had the power to put people like you in a 19th century factory (or a modern sweatshop for that matter), and see how long you would continue spouting out this sort of Randian drivel.
Wealth, even interest-bearing wealth in a mature capitalist system is ultimately and primarily based on exploitation of both dead and living labour and nature. Without that, the property-owning class would have no "money to risk".
Also, the term bourgeoisie refer to the academics as well; like to people who led the little unimportant revolution in France. Robespierre and Danton was never "creating companies".
And finally, capitalism grew out from feudalism. The capitalist class pretty much grew up protected by feudal privileges.
Try again. Socialism is not to "control the government".
Give me a drink and let it be strong.
While being an anti-Stalinist, Orwell was a socialist and strongly influenced by Trotskism. He "came to Spain" to fight in the civil war and joined the POUM. Later he writes sympatethically about the anarcho-syndicalists in Hommage to Catalonia, one of his best books. He retained his radical convictions for the rest of his life.You willl have your work cut out to include him in your
Falange.
CCA
Emperor
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Permanent revolution is the theory that the socialist revolution must be constant to prevent the creation of degenerate worker's state(USSR).
In the USSR the ruling class-the Tsars, Aristorcrats and the Capitalists were thrown out, only to be replaced by a new ruling class of commisars and the "Communist" Party
A permanent system of replacing the ruling classes in order to prevent stratification into social classes and statism so that the state can "wither away" is to be established. This may involve the devolution of power into smaller and smaller pieces until the individual, not capital is in charge of his/her destiny.
In the USSR the ruling class-the Tsars, Aristorcrats and the Capitalists were thrown out, only to be replaced by a new ruling class of commisars and the "Communist" Party
A permanent system of replacing the ruling classes in order to prevent stratification into social classes and statism so that the state can "wither away" is to be established. This may involve the devolution of power into smaller and smaller pieces until the individual, not capital is in charge of his/her destiny.
Fugitive Sisyphus
Escape Artist
I wish I had the power to put people into the communist utopia of North Korea. It works both ways.
Anyway. What exactly is 'Randian drivel'?
Richard Cribb
He does monologues
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Actually it doesn't, since nobody mentioned North Korea at all. I challenge you to find any of my posts that expresses positive sentiments about the North Korean regime.
By the way, few people would describe Juche as socialism, even less a "communist utopia".
Try harder next time.
It is drivel based on the ideas of Ayn Rand, "a truculent, domineering cult-leader, whose Objectivist pseudo-philosophy attempts to ensnare adolescents with heroic fiction about righteous capitalists" to quote Mike Huben, not a resident or fanboi of North Korea.
