Pests Revisited

[Arakhor]

I see your point there. I very much doubt that pigeons would add health to a city at all.

 

[Faustmouse]

I see your point there. I very much doubt that pigeons would add health to a city at all.

See, that's the point.

I understoof what RWN meant:

He said that if Pidgeons reqiure pop 11 and add 0.2 per pop, they start with 2.2 when they are "build" and then progress linear from there. If they had +2 as well, then they would start with 2.2-2=0.2 at size 11 and every pop more adds 0.2 to that. It just smoothens out the curve.

That would be a nice little trick actually, but IMO 2 more doesn't make too much of a change in that era...

 

[Faustmouse]

I just realized that all pests combinded would give you a hard -33%

That sounds rather extreme but I think this will definetly help reducing the enormous city growth in pre-industrial times. As a counter to that, I'd be happy to shift the pop-requirement up by 1 or 2.

 

[Arakhor]

You could try reducing the pigeons' value to (say) 0.15 or even 0.1 per level, so that you wouldn't need a bonus to flatten the curve and they wouldn't arrive with a huge .

 

[Rwn]

See, that's the point.

I understoof what RWN meant:

He said that if Pidgeons reqiure pop 11 and add 0.2 per pop, they start with 2.2 when they are "build" and then progress linear from there. If they had +2 as well, then they would start with 2.2-2=0.2 at size 11 and every pop more adds 0.2 to that. It just smoothens out the curve.

That would be a nice little trick actually, but IMO 2 more doesn't make too much of a change in that era...

Exactly. It's not very different from what we already have for Wild mushrooms - both and that cancel each other when the right tech is discovered.

I agree that 2 isn't very important, but if you add every pest at each level, it starts to be significant...

Edit: I'm not just talking about pidgeons but about every pest that has or per population.

 

[Faustmouse]

Let's just assume that when the pest arrives people are more about it and when it is established and the city grows they don't care as much as before on average

 

[JosEPh_II]

This is Way too much. And some of the assumptions are way off. It reminds me of the 1st revisions to Crime where Hydro went nuts.

Sorry Faustmouse but this is just too much at one time. And where did you get that Sea Gulls would show up in Industrial Era? They show up if it's a Coastal city that has reached pop 12 which can happen in late ancient. And there is so much more, Aphids only became a problem when Farming became wide spread, earliest would've been classical era. And pop 3 city in Preh Era has No disease control until Healers. That's why I didn't go with the pop 3 suggestion but started with Pop 4 and put aphids back because larger cities are more farm dependent than a pop 3 city. But from my point of view this was not really thought out at all. It's just all mad scientist test tube juggling.

I'm stopping here because I've probably already offended you and if so I'm sorry. This just took me back so much.

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

What exactly is "way too much"? I left MOST of the Pop requirements you set on them, I think I only changed 1 or 2. And Hydro set up the Industrial prereq for Seagulls.
Re-reading it, I think I mixed up Sanitiation and Modern Sanitiation. So yeah, Seagulls show up much earlier, true. It's Raccoons and Pidgeons that only appear later.

I'm happy to move Aphids back in the tree. IMO, they all can come a bit later.

And overall, I removed Disease from one or two pests, so after all, it shouldn't be more disease than it was before. Aphids don't give disease, and they should be the only one with a pop size 3 requirement. Then we have Mosquitos. And yeah, that's pretty heavy, but do you know how many people die because of malaria? Note that they are only maximum dangerous here if you have both, a Swamp/Flood Plains AND a Jungle in your vicinity. That's only the minority of of tiles.

Then there ARE buildings that can control Disease very early on. Not as great as Hospitals and such, but they'll do the job. Also, you won't lose the game if your disease goes up to 100 or 200 in the early game; you can control that a bit later.

I didn't feel offended, please continue! In fact, I anticipiated your feedback as you are the most "radical" hater of things that are "annoying" in civ

If I can reach a level where you are "grumble" about something but can live with it, I know it's just balanced right

So again, what excactly is too much? , - or do you think pests come too early? Please note that I barely touched the pop requirement and if I changed the tech req, I moved it further down the tree.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm still having my coffee this morning so hopefully I'll be a bit clearer on why I "reacted". And I need to reread it all again but one of the things that stuck out was using %s. % using is So Very Dangerous. Why because there are more dependencies than meet the casual eye. I gave an example of this with tourism how it gives pollutions which gives disease and we should all know that disease not only brings on bad buildings but can throw a city into the dumpster for a long long time and at the same time increase significantly. Or produce, because of these dependencies, wildly fluctuating and Disease levels.

Can you make a Table like rwn did with your changes. Sometimes a visual aid helps comprehension, especially if you've spent a lifetime mastering How to be a hands on, Show me how worker. I'm also from the Show Me state of Missouri, were talk is cheap but action counts for everything. (Character flaws I know, but that's part of who I am. ) And I'm happy to see I didn't offend you cause I'm also brash and very blunt (most of the time).

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

Here you go:

Pest|PrereqTech|MinSize|PrereqBonuses|MaxLatitude| per pop|Base effects|Disease|Comments|Obsolation
Pests (Ants)|TECH_AGRICULTURE|4|||+0.1|-1% ||+1% with Agricultural Engineering (AE)||TH Houses
Pests (Aphids)|TECH_PLOUGH|12|BONUS_VEGETABLES ; BONUS_FRUIT ; BONUS_FLOWERS|70||-5% -2% ||+3% +1% with AE| Genetic Engineering
Pests (Bed Bugs)|Sed. Lifestyle|10||70|+0.2| |5|-3 Disease; +0.1 perpop at AE|Nanotechnology
Pests (Cockroaches)|TECH_SEDENTARY_LIFESTYLE|6|||+0.2|-5% |1|+5% at Food Conservation|TH Houses
Pests (Crows)|TECH_PLOUGH|12||70|+0.2|-2% |||Vertical Farming
Pests (Fleas)|TECH_DOG_BREEDING|4|||+0.2| |5|-5 Disease at Modern Healthcare|Homo Superior
Pests (Flies)|TECH_SCAVENGING|4||70|+0.05||1|
Pests (Gophers)|TECH_AGRICULTURAL_TOOLS|13|BONUS_VEGETABLES||+1|-3% ||Requires Native Culture North American (?)|Vertical Farming|
Pests (Lice)||8|||+0.2| |5|-5 Disease at Modern Healthcare|Homo Superior|
Pests (Locust)|TECH_AGRICULTURE|8|||+1|-5% ||+3% and 3 with AE|Vertical Farming
Pests (Mosquitoes)||6||70|+0.3| |5|Requires Flood plains or Swamp;+10 Disease with Jungle|Homo Superior
Pests (Moths)|TECH_PERSONAL_ADORNMENT|12|BONUS_CLOTH ; BONUS_CLOTHES||+0.1| -2% with Cloth / Clothes|||Plastic
Pests (Pigeons)|TECH_CIVIL_ENGINEERING|13|BONUS_STONE|70|+0.3||3||| Falconry School
Pests (Raccoons)|TECH_CIVIL_ENGINEERING|13|||+0.1|-1% |1|-1 Disease with Modern Healthcare; 1% with Corn / Poultry
Pests (Rats)|TECH_SEDENTARY_LIFESTYLE|8||70|+0.1|-5% |10|+3% and -5 Disease with cats|TH Houses
Pests (Seagulls)|TECH_SANITATION|13|BONUS_RAWFISH ; BONUS_SHELLFISH|70|+0.2|-1% |2|Requires water tiles
Pests (Slugs)|TECH_PLOUGH|10|BONUS_VEGETABLES ; BONUS_FRUIT ; BONUS_FLOWERS|||-2% -2% ||+2% +2% +1 at AE|
Pests (Termites)|TECH_WOOD_WORKING|10|BONUS_WOOD ; BONUS_TIMBER|||-5% ||-3% at Carpentry; +4% with Masonry; +2% with Plastics|TH Houses
Pests (Ticks)||6||70|+0.1| |10|||Homo Superior
Pests (Wasps)|TECH_APICULTURE|12|||+0.2| ||+1 sick

[/QUOTE]

I think we can change all the effects at Agricultural Engineering (I consider this as when Pesticides came along) and make a building that probably kills all the related pests but at a massive malus on happyness and health for the city.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Thanks for the Table. I see you went back to the old City Pop sizes too.

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

Thanks for the Table. I see you went back to the old City Pop sizes too.

JosEPh

Urg no, that was a copy and paste mistake They should be the values you edited in, my bad. I'll fix that.

Edit: Fixed! Didn't want to destroy your work

I also tweaked the disease rates a bit downwards compared to my first draft.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Will you be posting a revised SpecialBuildings file? I see my original has now had 11 "views". So maybe more feedback will start coming in.

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

i honestly have no idea how to create a modmod on this

 

[JosEPh_II]

i honestly have no idea how to create a modmod on this

It would be xml changes to the SpecialBuildings_CIV4BuildingsInfos file.

Now adding to each Pest's xml is finding the right tags or properties to add to make the changes you suggested. This is one of the reasons going to %s is not always the best way, at least for my level of xml handling.

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

It would be xml changes to the SpecialBuildings_CIV4BuildingsInfos file.

Now adding to each Pest's xml is finding the right tags or properties to add to make the changes you suggested. This is one of the reasons going to %s is not always the best way, at least for my level of xml handling.

JosEPh

If you have -x or -x% is literally the easiest part of making this a mod mod

 

[Rwn]

It would be xml changes to the SpecialBuildings_CIV4BuildingsInfos file.

Now adding to each Pest's xml is finding the right tags or properties to add to make the changes you suggested. This is one of the reasons going to %s is not always the best way, at least for my level of xml handling.

JosEPh

I've completely sorted and cleaned the file, so now all the pests should be together with the tags in the same order and logically together

To have a -1 it's:

		<YieldChanges>
			<iYield>-1</iYield>
			<iYield>0</iYield>
			<iYield>0</iYield>
		</YieldChanges>

To have a -1% just change it to:

		<Yield[COLOR="Red"]Modifiers[/COLOR]>
			<iYield>-1</iYield>
			<iYield>0</iYield>
			<iYield>0</iYield>
		</Yield[COLOR="Red"]Modifiers[/COLOR]>

If you have Excel 2007, I can give you my Excel sheet so that it's just a matter of editing it in a table rather than manually changing the xml, it's much more visual and less prone to errors.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have Excel 2003 that windows updated to 2007 iirc.

I did alot of Excel modding for Master of Orion III. Have not done much since though. Just have to knock the rust off.

Will you also post the cleaned xml file please?

JosEPh

 

[Rwn]

I have Excel 2003 that windows updated to 2007 iirc.

I did alot of Excel modding for Master of Orion III. Have not done much since though. Just have to knock the rust off.

Will you also post the cleaned xml file please?

JosEPh

The cleaned xml is already in the last SVN.

I've attached to this post the Excel sheet. It's all set up, so just go in the Data tab, edit the cell corresponding to the tag you want to edit and replace the value with whatever you want then press the "Generate XML file" button in the top-left.
You'll get a .xml in the same folder as the excel sheet, it should be ready to put into a My_Mods folder.

Notes:
Make sure macros are allowed.
Multiple values (such as several iYield) are separated by " ; " (space semicolon space).
Don't delete or add cells or edit the cells under the red columns; if you just change cell values you'll be fine.
The sheet is set up to already include the bForceOverwrite tag.

It should be very intuitive, but if you have questions or something doesn't seem to work, just ask.

Spoiler :

 

[JosEPh_II]

<iYields> does this tag have more than 3? Food, Hammer, Gold? I thought that sometimes it has up to 5; Food, hammer, Gold, research, and Espionage in this order. True or false?

I know iCommerceYields has more than 3 that can be used, I think.

JosEPh