Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

[Norton II]

Good thinking on the Dutch war.

My thought on trading is this. We don't need to be tech leaders. We shouldn't look to buy monopoly techs. If we buy after a few civs get it, we can immediately sell it to the rest and get our cash back while making people happy. Once we get espionage, we can take a different approach. If we get another MGL, let's keep it for the Intel Academy. What do you all think about Commie? That or Fascism would make our spies more effective and as I understand it, Commie is a pretty effective gov't. I haven't played it and only recently learned the difference from PTW days. The lack of WW could help us too.

Admittedly, I should have held off on buying metallurgy at least until Egypt had it--I guess I just really hate being far behind in tech and have to get accustomed to it in this game.

As for communism, it might be worth switching to it once our empire's much larger, but as things are now I'd rather not lose the commerce bonus.

BTW, Sapporo's flip risk is extremely high right now--I'd recommend rushing a temple immediately.

 

[Phaedo]

It's hard being behind in tech I know but it's not that bad once you get used to it. Once we can effectively use spies, we can play the steal and fight game (which I am personally looking forward to). Thanks for the heads up on Sapporo. I suppose after getting some sammies out, maybe it's time to build some culture in a number of places.

 

[Bucephalus]

I think we have another window of opportunity on the horizon.

Celts lack Iron,Salt and Horses; since we haven't had our GA, we will be able to build Sammi's even once we get MT.

If we build up our military by building Sammi's then upgrading them to Cavs, we could find ourselves in a position to attack a vulnerable Celts; they will only remain so until they have Rifles, but until then they will be defensively lightweight. An MA with Hittites would probably seal their fate.

 

[Phaedo]

I'm just now getting a chance to look at the save. I'd like to sell Brennus Metallurgy for Nav 2gpt WM and 60g. Someone else will give it to him soon and we could use Nav.

ATM, we can't get MT. Maybe in a bit. I'm thinking about upgrading vSwords to MIs as well.

I'm hoping to get to it tonight but I may not finish until tomorrow.

 

[Bucephalus]

we could use Nav

For what purpose?

 

[Phaedo]

It would allow us to trade resources across the water and safely with Murry when the time comes. Brennus has cash to use and will get Metallurgy from someone else soon.

EDIT: I suppose we can already do that as they have Nav (other than China and Maya who don't have much to give us). I still think we'll lose the chance to sell it if we wait though.

 

[Bucephalus]

It would allow us to trade resources across the water and safely with Murry when the time comes. Brennus has cash to use and will get Metallurgy from someone else soon.

We can do that anyway, as long as the other party has Nav.

Although the AI trade at a discount, Metallurgy is valued highly so I doubt they'll get it quickly; 2 gpt is neither here nor there, I'd feel inclined to freeze them out - just because we can trade, it doesn't necessarily mean that we should.

 

[Phaedo]

Ok, we'll see what he does with it. Hopefully he is researching something unique.

 

[Bucephalus]

Ok, we'll see what he does with it. Hopefully he is researching something unique.

He's been at war for so long that I'm guessing WW is crippling his economy, so he won't research anything soon.

If you want to know, you could spend some gold to investigate Entremont; at least I think you can do so before Espionage.

 

[Norton II]

He's been at war for so long that I'm guessing WW is crippling his economy, so he won't research anything soon.

If you want to know, you could spend some gold to investigate Entremont; at least I think you can do so before Espionage.

You can as long as you have an embassy (we do) and aren't at war (we aren't).

 

[Phaedo]

Yes, but often the AI will go for an original one, especially if they are strong and behind tech-wise. They don't play by the same rules we do. Militarily, they are easy to figure out but they do tend to work together on the tech front. It is why you can be so far behind and suddenly jump ahead. If you are in the top 3 it won't happen but the AI seems to like to keep close civs a threat, Let's keep a close watch on China for a monopoly optional tech. If we drop back, they should get something the leaders don't and then we are the brokers again.

EDIT: Sorry, last minute social commitments kept me from playing tonight. I'll play the set tomorrow, not trade and work to MM the economy. Will an investigation let us know what he is researching? I didn't think it would, If not, I'd rather build the gold for a buy.

 

[Phaedo]

Well, after much delay (sorry team) I'm off

Pre-set, have a look around and things look good.
Move some swords around. Upgrade some vets.
Notice that we can re-negotiate our silks with Greece.
Our deals with the Celts and a number of ROPs are also set to expire in a turn. Brennus and us are the only ones with luxes for sale and I don't think 20 turns will hurt our war plans so I plan to re-negotiate the lot.

IBT renegotiate with Alexander for 29gpt and 4g. He wouldn't go for MT at all we got a better deal without the ROP so we no longer have one. Cleo then wants to re-negotiate too. renew the ROP for 8g (all she had) We are now at 137gpt
Osaka: Sammy>Sammy
Arnhem: Temple>Market

T1 660AD
Workers will have completely developed our land in a turn or two.
Cleo will only give us 19gpt and 4g for our silks so I renew with Brennus. We keep out gems and pay out 10gpt and 12g. I know it's a bit rich, but we are at 143gpt and if we lost them we'd be down the 10gpt anyway with the lux slider.
It also seems Cleo took all of Alex's gold for something.

IBT see a knight head north towards Murry.
Cleo and Alex are building Shakespeare's

T2 670AD
Alex has his gold back.
Worker turns and some troop movement. All our vets are now upgraded.

IBT Greeks and Egypt are building Smith's. I guess that's where the money went.

T3 680AD
Not much to do. There are 2 desert tiles to be worked but there isn't much point. Still, mine one and water the other.

IBT Zzzz

T4 690AD
Start a settler in tokyo as we have room for one more city down south and happiness will be an issue when it grows.
Notice an unimproved tile in the east and send a bunch of slaves that way.

IBT Egypt declares on Maya

T5 700AD
Nada

IBT Greece declared on Egypt! This will be interesting.

T6 710AD
The Greeks will now trade MT for WM, 68gpt and 911g. I think that's a bit steep.
Brennus will give Econ for 10gpt 13g and salt. I decide to take it.
The newly built settler moves south.
Some movement but not much else.

IBT Zzzz

T7 720AD
Our land is almost fully developed. Just some forests to plant.
Other than that, no real trades going and builds are in process.

IBT Celts enter the war on Egypt's side against Greece (are they nuts?)

T8 730AD
Greece will give us MT for an MA, WM, 40gpt and 659g. We obviously can't take it but it should make MT cheaper when we need it. Cleo will give us the same deal but 579g if we join in against the Greeks. I'd rather make our Celtic declaration when the time comes.
Brennus wants more than the others.

IBT Murry drops off a crusader and LB

T9 740AD
Kill the two units losing an MI (2-1)
Not much else to do.
Greece will give us spices for 463g or 25gpt and 13g with WM
An alliance is worth about 600g and MT is going for about40gpt and about 1000 cash.

IBT China gets into the war on the Greek side
Alex is building Newtons.

T10 750AD
Check around and prices are the same.
No one except Egypt and Greece have anything we want and they are the only ones with cash.

Brennus does have MT however. I may have seriously goofed with that Econ trade. We have 16 turns left. The tech pace is slowing as everyone is at war and Brennus will be quite weak when we jump on the bandwagon but Greece is 2 away from the IA as is Egypt.

We currently have 1553g and are at 191gpt with another 34gpt coming next turn as we will have stopped paying Greece and another 97gpt from Greece in 4 turns.
We currently have 6 sammies and 10 MI. Not quite enough for war yet but perhaps enough for a defensive conflict. I'd like to have a couple of cannon to knock out roads to slow down the knights. I don't know if it will work but If we allied with Greece against Cleo, perhaps Brennus would break his treaty with us for a tech from her.
Regardless, I think it's time to buy MT

Spoiler :

 

[Bucephalus]

Yep, I think the Economics deal was a waste of money; the only point in having it would have been if we had a pre-build going for Smith's; spilt milk, though, and at least it wasn't too expensive. The worst aspect of the deal, if I may be critical, was to include Salt; you have given Celts' Cavs, and we can only hope that the war with Hittites continues unabated.

It was the right decision to stay out of any more wars; world war is always to our advantage, because it offers tech brokering opportunities; one of the few times that buying at monopoly price may be worthwhile - if Greece gets Nationalism as it's free tech it may be worth breaking the bank for.

I think our surplus cash would be well spent cash-rushing Sammi's now; war with Celts is indicated in 20 turns or so.

 

[Bucephalus]

Can we have a roster check?

If CBob is still skipping, I think it falls to me again, yes?

 

[Bucephalus]

I think our best bet with MT is to wait two more turns at least; at that time we can make peace with Hittites, who currently don't have it, but would dearly love it.

If that is still the case, then we could acquire it and tie it in to the peace deal for Physics; if they have acquired it in between, then we are in no rush because we cannot now build Cavs - we have no Salt.

 

[Phaedo]

You are indeed up. I hummed and hawed about the salt and obviously made the wrong decision. I guess I got impatient and shouldn't have. It was an oddly uneventful yet interesting set.

The roster:
Phaedo
Bucephalus UP
Elephantium Simple Monkey Honoured Observer and alternate
Smart AWOL
Norton II On Deck
Commando Bob skipping

I think Cbob is still skipping.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, unless Norton has anything to add, or CBob indicates that he can play it, I'll play it tonight (about another 6 hrs).

 

[Norton II]

Nothing major to add--buying MT and getting physics from the Hittites sounds good to me. Sapporo should build a cathedral instead of an aqueduct; the flip risk is lower but still significant. For that matter, it wouldn't hurt to cash-rush the cathedral.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, I shall play tonight: my plan is to not renew our alliance with Celts once it expires; this will give us back our Iron and Horses; I will then offer Iron and whatever gpt is necessary to get MT from Brennus - I will retain our Horses to stop Brennus building any Cavs; I will then broker a peace deal with Hittites giving them MT in exchange for Physics.

I will crank out as many Sammi's as possible; I've had a quick look, and we have five cities that can be mm'd to give five turn Sammi's.
With short rushing where appropriate, we can build up a formidable offensive force in 20 turns; I anticipate we will be ready to go on Phaedo's next set.

Phaedo, I don't think arty is called for in this one; aside from the fact that we can't build cannon (no Salt), they can't keep pace with Cavalry.

Brennus will be defending with Muskets at best, and with enough Cavalry, we can absorb any losses.

We might want to think about initiating our GA at the start of hostilities, although that would preclude us from building any more Sammi's for upgrade so we probably wouldn't gain too much.

A MA with Hittites would be a wise choice, I believe - divide and rule.

Edit: A further thought: I intend to rush a caravel to ship some elite Swords over to Willie's island for a spot of leader fishing; a Cav Army now would be huge.

 

[Bucephalus]

Pre-turn:

mm a little for 5 turn Sammi's.

1)

Alexander would like our territory map; he would also like 100g.
I would like to punch his lights out, but I commit his insult to memory instead; when his time comes, I demand first dibs.
Rush Caravel in Nagasaki; move 3 Elite Swords to load next turn.
Rush Cathedral in Saporo.

2)

Our deals with Brennus end;

I cancel our alliance;
Give Brennus Iron + 13gpt in exchange for MT;
Make peace with Hittites;
Give Hittites MT + 5 gpt in exchange for Physics;
Brennus is now 'cautious' - and so he should be.

3)

Maya and Egypt make peace.
Switch Groningen and Green Fields to Pikes (ready to upgrade to Muskets when we get back our Salt); when we hit the Celts we need to be able to hold what we take.

Establish ROP with Greece for 40g; Alexander becomes 'polite'.

4)

Willie DOW Celts;
Willie DOW Greece;

Greece enters IA;
Alexander is now 'Gracious';
Brennus is also 'Gracious';

Cleo has Theory of Gravity now; despite it being known by Greece, she still values it at 120gpt; Greece has Magnetism as a monopoly, but will sell for 240gpt.
I am tempted to buy it and trade with Cleo - both techs for 120gpt each seems like an OK deal; Also, if Hittites are researching Magnetism, they can deal and freeze us out.
Egypt has gpt, they would give 60gpt for 1000g, so there is room for adjustment.
I'm going to pause for thought.
Decide against it; we don't need to lead the field, and Hittites have no gpt to exploit. It is better to wait and buy them at third hand - this is a marathon, not a sprint.

5)

Maya DOW Willie;
Sell Education to China for 245g;
Greece appear to be giving Egypt a kicking - two cities taken.

6)

Dutch galley attacks and sinks our caravel with three Elite Swords inside - now that's what I call bad RNG.
Cleo demands 100g; I oh so reluctantly cave, only to avoid early war with Brennus.

7)

Another Egyptian city falls to Greece.

8)

An opportunity has presented itself; Egypt has lost it's Iron, and will give us Theory of Gravity for ours + 25 gpt. This would mean that we couldn't build Sammi's of course. I'm tempted, but we need those Sammi's.

9)

Nothing

10)

Maya DOW Greece;
Egypt enters IA;
Deal with Greece (Silks) ends;
Give Greece 85 gpt + Silks for Theory of Gravity;
Give Hittites Theory of Gravity + 30gpt for Magnetism;
Sell Chemistry to Maya for 275g;
Sell Chemistry to China for Ivory, Dyes, 2gpt, enabling us to drop lux slider to zero, a saving of 47gpt.
We are now in the IA.

We have 19 Sammi's ready for upgrade; I've been rushing them each time that they were down to 3 turns to completion, costing 168g each time.
I've also rushed a number of Pikes, ready for upgrade.


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