Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

Pre-turn:

I must confess that I'm a little unsure how to proceed; it's clear that the time to trade WM's is now, and I was sure which way to go, but Norton's valid point has made me stop and think.

I've tried taking our WM out of the equation, and Greece still values it's WM far more highly than Egypt does; after much thought I'm still none the wiser, so I go with my original thought, though if I'm honest, I'm acting on a hunch.

Trade Silks to Greece for WM, ROP, and 38g; Alexander is now 'polite'.

Trade WM + 36gpt to Egypt for Monotheism and ROP; Cleo is still
'annoyed'

Sell WM to Celts for WM + 6gpt.

Enter:

1) Continuation of Worker stuff;

2) Switch core city builds to Cathedral;
3 Man Chariot disembarks from Hittite Galley; lose an Elite sword before defeating it - no MGL.
Our deal for Celts Gems expires; renewed at a slightly better rate (Silks + 2gpt)

3) Sapporo is founded, we acquire Celts Saltpeter;
Give Celts 38gpt + Salt for Theology.
Trade Theology + 10g to Maya for Chivalry + ROP; Smokey is still 'annoyed'. Maybe his haemarroids are playing him up.

4) Willie signs alliance with Hittites against us, costing us 16gpt.
Begin joining native workers to cities.

5) Join more Workers to cities.

6) Worker stuff.

7) Celts complete JS Bachs for us - I mean themselves. :mischief:

8) Tokyo and Kagoshima complete Cathedrals; mm for 5 turn Samurai's.
Chemistry is now widely known; I'm going to hold off from trading for it because our deals with Celts run out in 2 turns and I hope to use our Iron and Horses to get a good deal.

9) Groningen completes Market - begins Aquaduct; last two native workers join Osaka.

10) Renew deal with Celts; They give Education + Chemistry for Iron, Horses + 58gpt and MA against Hittites.
Upgrade some vet Swords to Maces.

Summary:

We acquired Mono, Theology, Education, Chivalry and Chemistry; with the three techs acquired in Tusker's turnset, that's 8 techs in 20 turns. If we can keep up that kind of pace, we are laughing.

In four turns we will get back 68gpt from Greece, so Astronomy can be afforded then, although Banking is known and would be a more useful option.

The stroke that we pulled with the Celts is working better that I even dreamed; if they make peace we get back our Iron, Horses, and 58gpt. We are in a win-win situation with that, because we can re-establish war in exactly the same way - tie a tech deal with a MA to the Iron/ Horses and gold.

Norton, if this doesn't make complete sense to you (and I know I'm sometimes guilty of poor communication), can I ask you to pause and save if this should happen?


>>The Save<<
 
Got it. I'll play tomorrow or Thursday. Not sure yet whether to go for astronomy or banking first--banking will help us quite a bit, but astronomy will reveal more of the tech tree and possibly let us find a monopoly tech to buy and trade for the rest (though I don't know what we could afford after buying astronomy). I'm leaning toward banking right now.

@Buce: your reasoning on the MA with the Celts makes perfect sense to me--we benefit whether they honor the alliance or not.
 
Norton II said:
@Buce: your reasoning on the MA with the Celts makes perfect sense to me--we benefit whether they honor the alliance or not.
Click to expand...

And you understand what to do if they make peace, yes?

I think Banking is the priority tech - Banks equals more gold - but don't buy at monopoly prices; it won't hurt us to remain a couple of techs behind at this stage.

Greece and Egypt are the big power-brokers so try to spread the deals between them; lets keep them on-side and the Hittites friendless.

I think we can afford to build up our military now, hence the Samurai builds in Kagoshima and Tokyo; they are nicely set for 5 turn Sammi's with no wastage.

The FP is going to be a huge boost to our economy - currently it will increase our revenue by 45gpt.

China and Maya are still fighting and still broke, but eventually they will be paying us good money for obsolete techs.

We needn't fret about Willie; he will offer peace soon enough, and he's always going to be worth a few gpt to us. Currently, he's worth more alive than he is dead, and he's going to offer a risk-free GA when it suits our purpose.
 
Wow, things look like they are going great. That Brennus deal was just fantastic. Who'd a thunk the Celts would be so valuable to us. And we are whipping through the tech tree. Well done all!
 
I'm on turn 4, and I have good news, bad news, and ambiguous news.

The bad news: 2 Hittite units captured Edo! The caravel wasn't visible until the same turn they landed, and I lost 3 elite swords trying to take out one pike. Because of this, we've lost our war happiness, and I had to set lux at 10%.

The good news: 2 elite swords recaptured the city on the following turn, and our second MGL showed up! What should we do with him? We could use him to finish the FP (13 turns away), but that might be somewhat wasteful. Should we build an army?

The ambiguous news: I just bought metallurgy from the Greeks for 97 gpt and 169 gold (I already acquired astronomy and banking). Unfortunately, nobody has any gpt to trade. The Celts and Egyptians don't have it, and we could probably get their techs for it (music theory, printing press, and navigation) as well as some lump-sum gold.
 
Norton II said:
The bad news: 2 Hittite units captured Edo! The caravel wasn't visible until the same turn they landed, and I lost 3 elite swords trying to take out one pike. Because of this, we've lost our war happiness, and I had to set lux at 10%.
Click to expand...

Ouch!

OK, no need to panic, we'll deal with it.

Can you post a save?
 
Norton II said:
If you read the rest of the post, you'll see that I already dealt with it, though the loss of war happiness will still be an issue.

Here's a save, though, because I'm still not sure what to do with metallurgy:

View attachment 150855
Click to expand...

Sorry, that's not what I meant; I was refering to the whole issue, specifically the WW (we started the war so we never had war happiness), and what options we have regarding Metallurgy.

My first thought is that you paid well over the odds for what was a monopoly tech.

It's possible that we may be able to mm the WW away if it's only affecting some cities.

I'll get a chance to look in an hour or so.
 
Bucephalus said:
Sorry, that's not what I meant; I was refering to the whole issue, specifically the WW (we started the war so we never had war happiness), and what options we have regarding Metallurgy.

My first thought is that you paid well over the odds for what was a monopoly tech.

It's possible that we may be able to mm the WW away if it's only affecting some cities.

I'll get a chance to look in an hour or so.
Click to expand...

I see; you confused me a little when you only quoted the first part of my post. Also, I thought we had war happiness because when I click on the unhappy citizens, I don't see the "give peace a chance" message that indicates WW. Anyway, with lux at zero, 11 cities would need specialists to prevent riots, so unless we start running a deficit, we should probably keep lux at 10. As for metallurgy, I overlooked something earlier: Egypt's in anarchy right now! I think they must have discovered democracy (they're not at war with anyone, so it wasn't WW or unit support costs that impelled them to revolt). If no one objects, I'm going to wait a turn and see what Egypt has to offer after the revolt's over.
 
OK, I've had a look.

I'm guessing that Celts made peace two turns ago, and you got Banking and Astronomy from them for another alliance, yes?

Losing Edo was unfortunate, but it sounds like you had rotten RNG luck.

I'd say to hold on to Metallurgy; the best - and only - deal available is 250g to Egypt. I'd be inclined to wait and see if Egypt gets Physics.

Next time Celts make peace I think it will be time for peace with Hittites; we've had a great run, and once war ends so will our WW. Once Celts are no longer at war, their economy will pick-up, and we'll be able to sell on Metallurgy, with a bit of luck.

I'd be inclined to rush the FP with the MGL; it will add 47gpt to our economy, and we don't really need an Army.

Nicely handled, Norton.

Edit: Cross post; I think you are right about Egypt, so I agree that you should definately hold on to Metallurgy for now.

Don't be tempted to trade for the optionals - they are worthless to us; they have no trade value, and JS Bachs is built.
 
Bucephalus said:
OK, I've had a look.

I'm guessing that Celts made peace two turns ago, and you got Banking and Astronomy from them for another alliance, yes?

Losing Edo was unfortunate, but it sounds like you had rotten RNG luck.

I'd say to hold on to Metallurgy; the best - and only - deal available is 250g to Egypt. I'd be inclined to wait and see if Egypt gets Physics.

Next time Celts make peace I think it will be time for peace with Hittites; we've had a great run, and once war ends so will our WW. Once Celts are no longer at war, their economy will pick-up, and we'll be able to sell on Metallurgy, with a bit of luck.

I'd be inclined to rush the FP with the MGL; it will add 47gpt to our economy, and we don't really need an Army.

Nicely handled, Norton.

Edit: Cross post; I think you are right about Egypt, so I agree that you should definately hold on to Metallurgy for now.
Click to expand...

Bought banking from Greece before the Celts broke the alliance. I got astronomy from the Celts when renewing the alliance.

I went on to the next turn, and I was right about the Egyptians--they're in democracy now. Unfortunately, it appears that the Greeks already gave them metallurgy for demo (Greece is now in anarchy), and Egypt still has no gpt to trade, so I'll hold on to it until next time the Celts make peace.
 
Norton II said:
Bought banking from Greece before the Celts broke the alliance. I got astronomy from the Celts when renewing the alliance.

I went on to the next turn, and I was right about the Egyptians--they're in democracy now. Unfortunately, it appears that the Greeks already gave them metallurgy for demo (Greece is now in anarchy), and Egypt still has no gpt to trade, so I'll hold on to it until next time the Celts make peace.
Click to expand...

Hittites also have it, so it's losing it's value every turn; no matter, it's not the end of the world.

What did you trade Greece for Banking?
 
Bucephalus said:
Hittites also have it, so it's losing it's value every turn; no matter, it's not the end of the world.

What did you trade Greece for Banking?
Click to expand...

WM, 35 gpt, and 681 gold. The Egyptians wanted WM, 36 gpt, and 674 gold. I went for it because I thought we needed banking ASAP, and we couldn't count on the Celts making peace before the alliance was up--they did that the very next turn, of course, but we couldn't count on it.
BTW, the Celts will now buy metallurgy for 8 gpt (all their gpt), 35 gold (their whole treasury), and any one optional tech. That might be the best deal we can get; should I take it?
Also, the Hittites had metallurgy when I bought it from Alex; I doubt we could have afforded it otherwise.
 
Norton II said:
WM, 35 gpt, and 681 gold. The Egyptians wanted WM, 36 gpt, and 674 gold. I went for it because I thought we needed banking ASAP, and we couldn't count on the Celts making peace before the alliance was up--they did that the very next turn, of course, but we couldn't count on it.
BTW, the Celts will now buy metallurgy for 8 gpt (all their gpt), 35 gold (their whole treasury), and any one optional tech. That might be the best deal we can get; should I take it?
Also, the Hittites had metallurgy when I bought it from Alex; I doubt we could have afforded it otherwise.
Click to expand...

That was a good price for Banking, and you were absolutely right to take it.

I'd still hang on to Metallurgy; in all truth 6gpt is neither here nor there.
Have you any idea which government Celts are in? They are either running high WW in Republic or they have switched to Monarchy; either way, once they have peace, their economy will pick up again, as it's a two-turn Anarchy to get back in to Republic. I feel inclined to gamble.

BTW, once those Banks are built, we need to beef up our military, so start cranking out the Sammi's.

Did you rush the FP?
 
Bucephalus said:
That was a good price for Banking, and you were absolutely right to take it.

I'd still hang on to Metallurgy; in all truth 6gpt is neither here nor there.
Have you any idea which government Celts are in? They are either running high WW in Republic or they have switched to Monarchy; either way, once they have peace, their economy will pick up again, as it's a two-turn Anarchy to get back in to Republic. I feel inclined to gamble.

BTW, once those Banks are built, we need to beef up our military, so start cranking out the Sammi's.

Did you rush the FP?
Click to expand...

The Celts are still in republic. I'll wait until they make peace, then see what we can get for metallurgy. I'm starting to wonder how many more exploitable tech disparities we'll find. When the IA starts, every AI is going to research nationalism, then probably one of the government techs. Maybe we ought to save money for a tech steal from Greece--whatever their free tech is, we should be able to profit from it.

I rushed the FP in Kyoto. As a result, we're at 53 gpt right now instead of 10.
 
Norton II said:
The Celts are still in republic. I'll wait until they make peace, then see what we can get for metallurgy. I'm starting to wonder how many more exploitable tech disparities we'll find. When the IA starts, every AI is going to research nationalism, then probably one of the government techs. Maybe we ought to save money for a tech steal from Greece--whatever their free tech is, we should be able to profit from it.

I rushed the FP in Kyoto. As a result, we're at 53 gpt right now instead of 10.
Click to expand...

China and Maya are still way behind; it will require patience but eventually they will be buying our obsolete techs.

I'm very reluctant to steal until we have Espionage - the percentages don't add -up and Greece would have the financial muscle to dog-pile us if it went wrong - we are still weak militarily; saving some gold is never a bad idea, just be prepared to cave to the odd demand.
 
All right, here goes. The save: View attachment Rage_650_AD_Norton.SAV

Preflight: not much; put taxman in Nagasaki to work, change clown to taxman in Tobacco Farm
IBT: The Hague market->temple (5); Egpyt starts Magellan's
1:
-change clown to taxman in The Hague
-buy banking from Alex for WM, 35 gpt, and 681 gold (Cleo wanted WM, 36 gpt, and 674 gold)
-change builds in Kagoshima, Osaka, and Tokyo to banks
IBT:
-Celts and Hittites sign peace
-WHB cathedral->bank (16); TF market->temple (4)
-Celts start Magellan's
-2 Dutch archers appear near Sapporo
2:
-2 elite swords kill archers--no MGL
-sign Celts back into war vs. Hittites: MA and astronomy for iron, horses, 4 gpt, and 4 gold
-Greece has metallurgy, but we can't afford it
-put taxman in WHB to work
IBT:
-Celts sign in Maya against Hittites!
-Hittite caravel drops off pike and longbow (both regular) next to Edo
3:
-2 elite swords and 1 vet are in range of the Hittite units; first sword redlines the pike and dies, next two do no damage and promote the pike to elite! Edo will be captured next turn
-start moving units toward Edo; 2 elite swords can attack next turn
IBT:
-Hittites offer peace, but we can't accept without ruining our rep; Hittites capture Edo after we reject peace offer
-Ice Shelf harbor->wealth
4:
-2 elite swords capture Edo; Hirohito is born!
-Edo starts rebuilding temple (15)
-because our war happiness went away (from the Dutch declaring on us), lux has to go up to 10% to keep 9 cities from rioting next turn; Haarlem still needs a taxman, though
-buy metallurgy from Greece (no longer a monopoly since the Hittites also have it) for 97 gpt and 169 gold
IBT:
-Hittite galley drops off 3MC near Kyoto
-renew RoP with Brennus
-GF aqueduct->temple (5)
5:
-mace kills 3MC, promoted to elite
-rush FP in Kyoto
IBT:
-Kyoto FP->cathedral (8); The Hague temple->aqueduct (15); Osaka bank->samurai (5); TF temple->harbor (3)
-Hittite caravel drops off 2 knights near Edo and Kyoto
6: 2 maces and 2 swords attack knights--maces die, swords kill
IBT: ---
7: ---
IBT:---
8: Greece has Military Tradition now
IBT:
-Izumo market->harbor (8); Tokyo bank->samurai (5); Haarlen market-> courthouse (20); TF harbor->cathedral (8); GF temple->harbor (4)
-Dutch galley drops off an archer near Kyoto
9: elite mace kills archer
IBT: Kagoshima bank->samurai (5)
10: ---

Notes:
-The Dutch are willing to talk peace now, but I don't think we should. When they declared on us, we got war happiness, and when the Hittites captured Edo, we got war weariness. They're cancelling each other out right now, but if we make peace with Willie, we lose the war happiness from that war and have to move the lux slider up again. We have 12 turns left on our alliance with the Celts, assuming they honor the alliance this time; let's wait until the alliance is over, then sign peace with the Hittites and stay at war with the Dutch until our war happiness is gone.
 
Good thinking on the Dutch war.

My thought on trading is this. We don't need to be tech leaders. We shouldn't look to buy monopoly techs. If we buy after a few civs get it, we can immediately sell it to the rest and get our cash back while making people happy. Once we get espionage, we can take a different approach. If we get another MGL, let's keep it for the Intel Academy. What do you all think about Commie? That or Fascism would make our spies more effective and as I understand it, Commie is a pretty effective gov't. I haven't played it and only recently learned the difference from PTW days. The lack of WW could help us too.
 
The roster:
Phaedo UP
Bucephalus On Deck
Elephantium Simple Monkey Honoured Observer and alternate
Smart AWOL
Norton II
Commando Bob skipping
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

LKendter
LK174, Civ=America, CCM3, True American Democracy
6 7 8
Replies
142
Views
3K
Jersey Joe
Jersey Joe
bengalryan9
Civ Discussion - Inca
Replies
9
Views
438
Sagax
Sagax
j51
Debuffing Cavalry
Replies
13
Views
581
Boris Gudenuf
Boris Gudenuf
disjointaccount
Leader Discussion - Himiko, Queen of Wa
Replies
10
Views
632
bengalryan9
bengalryan9
bengalryan9
Civ Discussion - Khmer
Replies
19
Views
1K
MutilationWave
MutilationWave
Back
Top Bottom