Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

[Phaedo]

Yea, that's what I meant by Good luck. I opened the save a while ago and tried it against the Celts (never thought to try it against the Hittites though). We are WAY behind everyone. It is the challenge that makes this beast interesting

 

[Phaedo]

Welcom to the suck. We have quite a challenge. That's also what I meant by saying that we have a strategy but we don't know quite how to do it. Our challenge is getting the Dutch into the war to burn their horses so we can take their their land. Having said that, your suggestion about a worker makes much more sense when compared to my boat suggestion eh?. At the end of the day , our goal is to deplete Willie of his horses so we can attack him.

I downloaded the save and tried some stuff. As I said, I didn't think about Murry but the Dutch wouldn't go against Brennus for all the defecit spending we could give. We have those dyes in reserve, but realistically, at the moment they won't be enough to buy him into a war. We need more cash (which is why I think the worker is a much better call than my boat suggestion). The truth is though, our plan of buying Willie into a war may not work. That means going at him ourselves. It is truely unfortunate that we are at war with Murry because he makes us an easy target (sorry Tusker, but this is your bad). Now, buying Willie into a nice (for him) gpt for dyes might help us pull off our plan. Maybe we should hook up a deal with Willie to intice him not to attack us and make war with Brennus more enticing. He will be going to war shortly, we just have to make sure it is not with us. Any enemy will do.

And glad you are on the team for the discussion cuz it aint cut and dried

 

[Bucephalus]

Don't sweat on Willie; if we can't get him to send his Horses North, we will have to change our battle tactics by setting up a kill zone around the Iron hill and the adjacent mountain. But I feel it worth repeating - we need swords not contacts; sure, we will be playing catch-up, but that is always the way with zero science. A well developed empire built on prime grassland has more than enough potential to generate the cash we'll need, and that's what Willie has.

 

[Norton II]

Unfortunately, we can't do resource deals yet--no trade route. I'll get one worker to hook up a road to Rotterdam, assuming the Dutch don't beat me to it. Then I'll see how much Willie will give us for our surplus silks. Meanwhile, I'm going to buy masonry from Brennus; hopefully that'll keep him off our backs, at least.

 

[Norton II]

First off, the save: View attachment Rage_1000_BC_Norton.SAV

Summary: I've got good news and bad news.
The good news: We're still alive, our military is now average compared to everyone, and we're likely to be at peace with both our immediate neighbors for a while. Also, the Hittites will talk to us now.
The bad news: The Hittites are now at peace with the Celts, they're demanding gold and gpt from us for peace, and we couldn't trade silks with Willie because he demanded them as soon as the road to Rotterdam was finished (on the IBT, I mean). Also, our "average" military is costing us 8 gpt.

Preflight:
-change rax in Edo to worker
-build embassy in Amsterdam for 35 gold
-Dutch haven't met Hittites, so no alliance
-buy masonry from Celts for 8 gpt and 13 gold
IBT:
-Osaka sword->sword(8);Tokyo sword->sword(10)
1: send worker toward Rotterdam to establish trade route
IBT:
-Willie asks us to leave; we apologize and promise to do so (crosses fingers behind back)
-Edo worker->worker(10)
2: nothing
IBT:
-Kyoto sword->sword(4)
-Copan finishes Great Lighthouse--so much for capturing it
3: Hittites want 28 gold and 4 gpt for peace--not happening
IBT: nada
4: zip
IBT:
- the very second the road to Rotterdam is finished, Willie demands silks! ; guess I should've known--we cave, of course
-Tokyo grows to 6, will riot next turn
5:
-raise lux to 10%--gpt drops from 7 to 4!
-Hittites want 2 gpt and 41 gold now--better, but no dice
IBT: cow now irrigated
6: zip
IBT: Kyoto sword->sword(4)
7: zilch
IBT: Tokyo sword->sword(6)
8: zero
IBT:
-crap! Hittites and Celts sign peace
-Osaka sword->sword(8)
-Celts start MoM
9: bupkus
IBT: Kyoto grows to 7, will riot next turn
10:
-make clown in Kyoto to prevent riots after dropping lux to 0--5 gpt
-Murry will sign peace for 3 gpt and 46 gold--guess I should've signed earlier

So, as I said, good news and bad. Notes:
-I figured giving in to the Dutch demand for silks was a no-brainer--we're not ready for war yet, and in my experience, the AI usually means business when it demands a resource. We're locked in to 14 more turns of peace with Willie, which should be enough time to prepare for war with him.
-The worker in Edo is 2 turns from completion, so if we decide it's better to build a dinky, a rax, or whatever, we can change it.
-Unit support is becoming a big issue, and happiness is now an issue in Kyoto. Should we pop out a settler and build a junk city in the desert/plains area near Haarlem?
-I'm afraid that the price for peace with Mursilis might go up even more now that he and Brennus are at peace and he can rebuild his military. Maybe it would be best to sign now.

 

[Elephantium]

What, we should've caved in to the demand of 20 gold for the privilege of continuing to pay Murray 7gpt?

I really didn't think it would be a problem; even if he declared, he was separated from us by the Celts. Then again, I didn't think there'd be any problem with negotiating a quiet little peace treaty around now, either.

 

[Bucephalus]

Good decisions, Norton.

Hittites will give peace for free once we've killed the dribs and drabs that come our way.

And as for Willie - well, the Sicilians have a proverb: "Vengence is a dish best served cold."

Learning to grit one's teeth and cave when needed is one of the steps required to play at higher levels.

Well done.

 

[Bucephalus]

What, we should've caved in to the demand of 20 gold for the privilege of continuing to pay Murray 7gpt?

In a nutshell - yes.

When you refused to cave to Mursilis, you didn't know that he hadn't met Willie; having Willie allied against us at that time would have finished us.

As it is, it almost certainly influenced Willie in his demands for silks.

 

[Bucephalus]

If we can manage to squeeze out the odd Settler, it would be good, but lets not waste them; we will have Dutch land to fill soon enough.

 

[Norton II]

Good decisions, Norton.

Hittites will give peace for free once we've killed the dribs and drabs that come our way.

And as for Willie - well, the Sicilians have a proverb: "Vengence is a dish best served cold."

Learning to grit one's teeth and cave when needed is one of the steps required to play at higher levels.

Well done.

Thanks. The way I saw it, caving to Willie's demand had the same basic effect as a trade would have had--keeping him from attacking us until we want a war and are ready to win one. The only downside is that we're not getting anything in exchange--of course, if he were paying us gpt and wanted to stop, he might attack us anyway.

If we can manage to squeeze out the odd Settler, it would be good, but lets not waste them; we will have Dutch land to fill soon enough.

True, but the question is whether we can support an army large enough to take on the Dutch with only four cities. Right now, we can build 5 more units and still break even. Assuming we build a worker or a curragh in Edo, that's 4 more swordsmen, for a total of 14--probably not enough. In 10 turns, we don't have to pay Brennus 8 gpt anymore, but we might want to buy another tech. Another city would let us afford 5 more swords (4 free unit support and 1 gold), so IMO it's worth considering.

 

[Bucephalus]

Another city would let us afford 5 more swords (4 free unit support and 1 gold), so IMO it's worth considering.

I would only consider it worthwhile if the timing works out; realistically, I think we will need to take out Willie's horsemen ourselves, and this won't happen now for twenty turns or so. If we can spit out 2 settlers in that time without disrupting sword manufacture then I'd say we could afford to put one down now; but having at least one settler available to snare those horses, in the 2nd phase of the upcoming war, would be a priority IMO.

 

[Phaedo]

I was pretty busy yesterdau so I couldn't give a lot of input, sorry. Consider this my "got it." I'll look at the save and post some thoughts. I like the idea of another city. If I recall, there might be some room down south, but I'll take a closer look at the save and post a dot map if I can think of anything other than a desert town.

Nice set Norton and helpful input too

 

[Phaedo]

Possible city locations?

I put it in for the sake of discussion but the purple dot makes me rather nervous.

The aqua and red dots are a bit close to Willie's border but I think they would survive for a bit.

Personally, I like the red dot. I realize it would be under some cultureal pressure, but that would go down as it grows and there is plenty of land to help it grow. We could even get it working the cow for a bit to get the pop up. The reason I like it most is that it is on a hill. If we end up going against Willie solo, a stack of troops on the mountain and red would be a nice defence. If we could chop the frost 1NE of the dot, attackers wouldn't have any defence bonus. Most importantly, it puts all the hills in our bordes so Willie can't use them effectively to launch an attack against us.

The Auqua dot doesn't really give us anything of immediate benefit. It would only face attackers from the south (realtively corrupt cities for Willie). At the end of the day, it's just a relatively solid location so once, we clear out Willie a bit it could stand as a city with potential.

For my set, I intend to keep pumping out the swords, get Kyoto on a settler and settle it when we decide on a place. If we are going at the Dutch, I think we need at least 20 swords to go at it in order to have enough firepower to hurt him and defend ourselves.

On the up side, it seems no one has iron yet. Muurry will eventually hook it up but ironless Brennus is a relief.

 

[Bucephalus]

What troubles me most about adding new cities at present, is that it will broaden our front-line.

Before we can send a stack to Holland we will need to neutralise a lot of horses, and we can do that by drawing them to a killing zone set up around our Iron; as things stand they would almost certainly be drawn there.

That said, providing that, a) it was connected by road to Osaka by way of the hill to the North, and b) the trees were deforested (use the chop for walls, maybe rax), I could see it fitting in to that plan.

Edit: Sorry, that's not clear - I was referring to the red dot.

 

[Elephantium]

Caving in to ridiculous AI demands isn't something I'm in the habit of doing - I guess I have a lot to learn about higher-level play.

 

[Bucephalus]

Caving in to ridiculous AI demands isn't something I'm in the habit of doing - I guess I have a lot to learn about higher-level play.

No worries; you just need to be aware that the AI is less forgiving of mistakes at this level. We don't have the luxury of being able to change strategy too much at this stage, so we need things to progress in our chosen direction, at our chosen speed.

Think long-term; nothing really gets hurt by these demands - only our pride.

 

[Elephantium]

Gotcha. Check my pride at the door

If nothing else, this game is a fantastic learning experience for me!

 

[Bucephalus]

Gotcha. Check my pride at the door

If nothing else, this game is a fantastic learning experience for me!

Nothing teaches like experience.

Don't get me wrong, the AI is just as stupid at Deity as it is at Chieftan; the only difference is the bonuses it gets, and these are felt most keenly in the early game.

We need to be 30 or 40% more efficient than them, just to break even, and it takes time to catch up to that. In the meantime, avoiding getting dog-piled is something of a priority, and if that means kissing butt occasionally, then that's what we'll do. If it offends your pride, try doing what I do - bear a grudge; I get great satisfaction avenging a 2,000 year old insult.

 

[CommandoBob]

Earlier this month Bucephalus PMed me and invited me to join this game. I refused, due to too many SGs. Phaedo has recently PMed me and also invited me to join. I still have the same number of SGs, but two of these (CBob01 and Whomp05) will be done soon, so I will have time to participate in this SG, if the current players are agreeable to my inclusion.

Regardless of inclusion, I did take a few minutes to do a brief anaylsis of the current in-game situation.


1000 BC Analysis

Despotism (10.0.0)
58 gold, +5 gpt
Mysticism (-- turns)

City Orders

1. Kyoto (7) vSword in 1, zero growth
2. Osaka (4) vSword in 7, grows in 4
3. Toyko (4) vSword in 4, grows in 1
4. Edo (1) worker in 2, grows in 2

City Builds

• vSword [3] (Kyoto, Osaka and Toyko)
• worker [1] (Edo)

Luxuries enjoyed

1. Silks (2 connected, one traded to Netherlands)

Strategic Resources available

• Iron (1 connected)

Military Units

• Workers 05
• Warrior 05
• Archer 04
• Swords 10
• Support
  • Total 24
  • Allowed 16
  • Support 08 gpt

Military Comparison

• Average compared to Netherlands (Despotism)
• Average compared to Hittites (Despotism)
• Average compared to Celts (Despotism)

Diplomacy

• At Peace with Netherlands (Willie)
• At War with Hittites (Murray)
• At Peace with Celts (Brenny)

Long Term Goal
Get to space by not studying (Buy and steal the smarts to get ahead!)

Mid Term Goal
Somehow trick Willie into a war with Murray and while Willie's units are up north attack Willie's land, first to deny him Horses and second to capture his cities.

Short Term (next turnset) Goals
Not sure.

Notes
Didn't check the wonder races, sorry. And all my analysis does is just reorder the game information into a different format. I find it helpful (for me) since it forces me to examine the entire game before moving on.

While the chief Samuri tells us we are only average compared to everyone, the advantage is actually ours. The AI can only react; it cannot plan and exploit. And Bucephalus' plan is a good one; it ought to work.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

lurker's comment:
I'm not really sure why you guys are waiting. I have to think you could take willie's horses now - he's got probably his starting warriors, 2 spears per town, 4-5 archers and 4-5 horseys.

If you park a sword or a spear on the mountain/Hill south of Osaka, and one south of Tokyo, his horseys will impale themselves on your swords/archers in tokyo, and you can take the warriors/archers after that. It will be a little hairy for a turn or two, but you'll be able to have 80-85% of your military concentrated on some 50-60% of his - you should be able to cripple his SOD, then take his horses.

Just one lurkers opinion, of course