Philosophical/Industrious

[Polycrates]

I really don't get what all the fuss is about with Ind/Phi. If wonders are providing a non-trivial boost to your GP production, then you're probably massively underutilising Phi. I'd rather have Spi/Phi for GPP production any day (or Cre/Phi, for that matter). For example, three wonders only give the GP benefit of two regular specialists, and that's a massive investment (plus there's no guarantee that it's the GPPs that you want). Instead of wonders, you could build a mass of military and take some good GP farming land, or run a few more specialists (or even cottages) instead of mines, etc etc.

There's plenty of other synergistic trait combos in the game (Agg/Cha, Spi/Cha, Spi/Phi etc etc) and I'd rather have any of them in favour of Ind/Phi.

 

[Arlborn]

Fin/Org is indeed strong. In fact, very strong, specially with Immortals...
But, Ind/Phi is for cultural-builders/SE-users.

 

[Nay]

i still dont think that PHI/IND is for an SE.
it is, for me, quite the opposite, since building wonders equals specialists without sacrificing plots to specialists.

so in fact, i have an indirect SE with working plots at the same time.
I wouldnt use specialists with PHI/IND.

 

[onedreamer]

Cheap Wonders -> Quicker and more frequent GP's -> Faster Tech -> Wonders available sooner -> Cheap Wonders -> Even more frequent GP's -> Even Faster Tech...... etc

It would break the game horribly for anyone who knew what they were doing.

I'd love to play it - it suits my style of play perfectly, but it would become pointless.

People claiming that it would be ok just aren't using their imagination and they need to go and mod it in and try for themselves.

well, most wonders require either marble or stone to be made twice faster (which is twice the bonus of Industrious). So I would say that it's the trait Phi that is insane, like someone said, and not necessarily Phi/Ind, since Phi/stone-marble is more powerful than Phi/Ind without stone-marble. Of course it is true that having Industrious is a plus for building wonders, but I still think that the randomness/luck in the map is a more important factor.

 

[Spearthrower]

Adding in another factor (stone/marble) doesn't change the veracity of it... to create a fair analogy, you'd have to say IND/PHI + stone/marble.

I do however totally agree that randomness and luck account for far more than most people are willing to accept.

 

[Silence101]

i still dont think that PHI/IND is for an SE.
it is, for me, quite the opposite, since building wonders equals specialists without sacrificing plots to specialists.

so in fact, i have an indirect SE with working plots at the same time.
I wouldnt use specialists with PHI/IND.

That type of use of PHI/IND in itself isn't overpowered - the potential for it to be overpowered comes when you combine it with an SE - if you know what you're doing, it could become really powerful.

The mass amounts of wonders that you can build combine with the many specialists that you're running with an SE mean TONS of GP's very early - and that leads to lots of free techs through lightbulbing or settled GP's (or a combo of both) for even more teching power.

But anyway, it sounds like you're referring to using wonders to replace GP points from not using specialists. I'm saying that when you combine the two, it becomes exponentially more powerful.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I always thought King Solomon would be perfect for this trait combo (built the temple, several buildings, and the book Proverbs is attributed to him). I don't think the AI would have too clear of an edge, but I agree that I'm a player I'd need to up my difficulty (like I do with Rome).

I completely agree. They need to add Israel under King David (Charismatic/Spiritual) and Solomon (Industrious/Philosophical). They could add a modern leader too if they want to, but the ancient ones would be better (and probably less controversial)

 

[UnspokenRequest]

Does anybody really think that the traits are attributed to leaders based on reality??

They're so arbitrary, you could ascribe most of the leaders with most of the traits.

They're all just square pegs pushed through round holes.... I am sure a good argument could be made for Lincoln being Aggressive, Financial, Spiritual, Organised... etc etc etc.

They usually fit a bit. It's not perfect, but it is far from random. I mean. Stalin will never get Creative and Spiritual.

Gandhi won't get agressive and imperialist. A guy trying to argue that Gandhi was agressive and imperialist would be a real weirdo!

 

[Silence101]

They usually fit a bit. It's not perfect, but it is far from random. I mean. Stalin will never get Creative and Spiritual.

Gandhi won't get agressive and imperialist. A guy trying to argue that Gandhi was agressive and imperialist would be a real weirdo!

I say Gandhi was an aggressive imperialist! YAk!

 

[UnspokenRequest]

@Silence101
I knew someone wanted to be a weirdo!!!

On the power of Ind/phi
My position on the combo. It would be powerful, but it would not break the game.
I'd like a demonstration/explanation on how and why it is soooo game-breaking. Of course, the traits reinforce each other to a certain extent, but that in itself is not gamebreaking (or not more so than agg/cha). What is the über-strategy move that provides a certain win compared to other combos?

Another thing, people seem to think Industrious guarantees that you get most or even all of the wonders.
That is not the case. Far from it (if it is the case with your games, you should move up a level)
First, there are probably other industrious civ competing with the player for the wonders.
Second, there are civs that will surely get stone and marble.
Third, I don't see how someone can build so much wonders and still have growing cities, with decent amounts of units, buildings and improvements.
Whether industrious or not, a wonder heavy strategy represents a lot of hammers. Hammers who don't go into other priorities.

 

[SwordofStriker]

@Silence101
I knew someone wanted to be a weirdo!!!

On the power of Ind/phi
My position on the combo. It would be powerful, but it would not break the game.
I'd like a demonstration/explanation on how and why it is soooo game-breaking. Of course, the traits reinforce each other to a certain extent, but that in itself is not gamebreaking (or not more so than agg/cha). What is the über-strategy move that provides a certain win compared to other combos?

Another thing, people seem to think Industrious guarantees that you get most or even all of the wonders.
That is not the case. Far from it (if it is the case with your games, you should move up a level)
First, there are probably other industrious civ competing with the player for the wonders.
Second, there are civs that will surely get stone and marble.
Third, I don't see how someone can build so much wonders and still have growing cities, with decent amounts of units, buildings and improvements.
Whether industrious or not, a wonder heavy strategy represents a lot of hammers. Hammers who don't go into other priorities.

One possibility is that if you are running a SE with these traits, then you will be building wonders faster which will combine with your specialists to give you great people faster, which will lightbulb more techs. Then you trade the trivial ones away and your new friends can use their armies to make up for the fact that you don't have much of one. The army you do have however should be significantly more advanced than anything anyone else can field so you don't necessarily need a bigger army.

It's a theory anyway.

 

[BYC]

The main problem with Ind/Phi is that the AI is far too idiotic to take advantage of a player spamming wonders to create the feedback loop. Early units just aren't so powerful that a SoD from Shaka or Monty won't still be able to take cities. I'm not convinced that even with this powerful trait combo that players will be able to consistently get machine guns to counter macemen and trebs.

As far as I know, almost all really high levels of play, like Immortal and Deity, going pure builder is simply impossible. One has to press every advantage in order to keep up. But I don't play on those levels, so I have no idea if this is an accurate statement or not.

 

[Spearthrower]

On the power of Ind/phi
My position on the combo. It would be powerful, but it would not break the game.
I'd like a demonstration/explanation on how and why it is soooo game-breaking.

There have already been plenty of explanations as to why - the only thing that will satisfy the skeptics is to try it themselves. Make a simple mod to put this combo into the game on anyone you deem fit and give it a whirl. Even if you play badly, you'll be light years ahead of the AI. Just don't forget to lightbulb!


As for the other thing... I did say *most* leaders with *most* traits... not all

 

[Elandal]

Give it to Lincoln!

I will not tolerate anyone messing with one of my favourite trait combinations, not even for Industrious reasons

 

[azzaman333]

There have already been plenty of explanations as to why - the only thing that will satisfy the skeptics is to try it themselves. Make a simple mod to put this combo into the game on anyone you deem fit and give it a whirl. Even if you play badly, you'll be light years ahead of the AI. Just don't forget to lightbulb!


As for the other thing... I did say *most* leaders with *most* traits... not all

But you can do that as ANY Philo civ. Wonders generally just screw with the GPP pool.

 

[Spearthrower]

Yes.... but you can do it MORE than just as PHI!

This is the most circular debate I have ever seen.

Also, they don't screw with the GP pool if you selectively choose where you build them. Only if you build them mindlessly.

Why wont people claiming that its not overpowered in theory, on paper etc... just go and try it and see!?

 

[Cvntpumeler]

I am sure a good argument could be made for Lincoln being Aggressive, Financial, Spiritual, Organised... etc etc etc.

Yeah... not Industrious though. Sorry Octavious

 

[Cvntpumeler]

Yes.... but you can do it MORE than just as PHI!

This is the most circular debate I have ever seen.

Also, they don't screw with the GP pool if you selectively choose where you build them. Only if you build them mindlessly.

Why wont people claiming that its not overpowered in theory, on paper etc... just go and try it and see!?

I agree with Spear to some extent that in the right hands that trait combo could be very powerful... but i wouldn't say game-breaking. Their are other leaders with great combinations of traits too, like Lizzy and the crazy hybrid economy you can make or Darius aka moneybags or Huyauna when you use Quechas on your earliest enemy and then build wonderspam and build economy... Lots of traits have great synergy... Ghandi, Freddy...

Edit: I would say it's "game-breaking" if it makes a warmonger player turn builder in order to compete. I don't think that would be the case...

 

[azzaman333]

Yes.... but you can do it MORE than just as PHI!

This is the most circular debate I have ever seen.

Also, they don't screw with the GP pool if you selectively choose where you build them. Only if you build them mindlessly.

Why wont people claiming that its not overpowered in theory, on paper etc... just go and try it and see!?

I don't need to try it to know the combo is less OP than Fin/Org.

 

[L4zXX0r]

Not really. While you're building those wonders, I'm building an army to take your wonders.

The point is, you don't really build wonders, because you're making great engineers all day long, and any wonders they cannot complete, you'll make super fast anyways, because of industrious. I've been a builder with a HUGE army. Just because I'm smart with my building.