Philosophical/Industrious

[L4zXX0r]

Maybe it's time to test it. Shouldn't be too hard to Add Meiji to japan?

 

[Arlborn]

I shall test it(prince)...If I find out how!

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[Spearthrower]

I don't need to try it to know the combo is less OP than Fin/Org.

Then, with respect, you have fallen into the trap of a limited imagination.

FIN/ORG just gives you cash.... cash is great and all, but there's a ceiling to how it can help your tech rate. With FIN/ORG you run a CE and can obviously only run a maximum of 100% of your commerce towards science.... 100% of whatever your commerce is... which has absolutely no difference whatsoever than any other Financial leader. The ORG just cuts your costs making it more likely that you can run at 100%. It is indeed powerful, but it has absolutely no comparison to PHI/IND whatsoever.

With PHI/IND... you'd get to pump out GP's at an inordinate rate; this is a secondary bonus to your tech - an ADDITIONAL bonus to your tech rate independent of your actual beaker production. You don't double your tech rate, but you get perhaps 25-40% more at various stages of the game.

Perhaps you haven't seriously considered all the elements on paper, which is why I suggest you go and try and see how it plays out. Theorising and direct experience are not equally valid.

 

[Angst]

Then, with respect, you have fallen into the trap of a limited imagination.

FIN/ORG just gives you cash.... cash is great and all, but there's a ceiling to how it can help your tech rate. With FIN/ORG you run a CE and can obviously only run a maximum of 100% of your commerce towards science.... 100% of whatever your commerce is... which has absolutely no difference whatsoever than any other Financial leader. The ORG just cuts your costs making it more likely that you can run at 100%. It is indeed powerful, but it has absolutely no comparison to PHI/IND whatsoever.

With PHI/IND... you'd get to pump out GP's at an inordinate rate; this is a secondary bonus to your tech - an ADDITIONAL bonus to your tech rate independent of your actual beaker production. You don't double your tech rate, but you get perhaps 25-40% more at various stages of the game.

Perhaps you haven't seriously considered all the elements on paper, which is why I suggest you go and try and see how it plays out. Theorising and direct experience are not equally valid.

QFT
bloody 10chars

 

[alpaca]

Well, philosophical + forums is a pretty nice combo for specialist economies. And with prats & protective archers, you'd have a hard time invading Sitting Bull of the Romans.

Philosophical makes the forum relatively weaker, it adds more with a non-protective leader (25% instead of only 12.5% of your usual rate). And you have a hard time invading any roman or protective leader in the ancient era

 

[UnspokenRequest]

Yes.... but you can do it MORE than just as PHI!

The question is how much more? As I said earlier, industrious doesn't guarantee you'll build most of the wonders.

 

[Cvntpumeler]

The question is how much more? As I said earlier, industrious doesn't guarantee you'll build most of the wonders.

Yeah, this is where I'm coming from... If I don't draw any AI wonder-whores like Ramses or Asoka, I've got a good shot at building any wonder I want with Elizabeth. She's Phi for the GP points and Fin to run at ~100% science slider to get to the wonder's tech first, which then allows you to win the wonder race without being industrious, barring maybe a few super early wonders that you can't beeline to.

Edit: Fredrick is the same way, with Org.

 

[Angst]

The question is how much more? As I said earlier, industrious doesn't guarantee you'll build most of the wonders.

go for Great Engineers, hurry more Great Engineer wonders and see them pop out like unwanted children.

 

[Rotting]

I don't aggree, reg. FIN/ORG vs. PHI/IND

FIN/ORG does not only give you the possibility to easily spend 100% of your commerce to science as with any other financial leader. It gives you this opportunity with a FAR BIGGER Empire than any other leader will be able to establish as early as a FIN/ORG leader can do! So, both traits are strengthening each other, aren't they?

In regs to PHI/IND:
1. Engineers cannot be hurried early game!
2. even Wonders need to be build first! If you are a little faster than others doesn't mean a thing in fact! Some may start earlier, some may have a stronger-production city, some may have stone or marble which you don't have or whatever!

There is MUCH more to building a wonder than only have the industrial trait. Which is in fact the reason why I nearly never play with IND-Leaders at all, except maybe Roosevelt sometimes. So successful IND-playing still depends on a lot of Maybe's, which in fact are NOT in total controllable by the player, in total opposite of FIN/ORG. In my opinion FIN/ORG is the STRONGEST Trait-Combination. PHI/IND would not even be second. Believe me!

 

[Spearthrower]

The question is how much more? As I said earlier, industrious doesn't guarantee you'll build most of the wonders.

No of course, but as I also said earlier, the trait combination puts you at such a tech advantage that you can take your pick of the wonders you want - you don't even need to rush them, you can build them naturally thanks to your multiple-tech lead.

 

[azzaman333]

No of course, but as I also said earlier, the trait combination puts you at such a tech advantage that you can take your pick of the wonders you want - you don't even need to rush them, you can build them naturally thanks to your multiple-tech lead.

Not any more than your average Phi leader.

 

[Spearthrower]

FIN/ORG does not only give you the possibility to easily spend 100% of your commerce to science as with any other financial leader. It gives you this opportunity with a FAR BIGGER Empire than any other leader will be able to establish as early as a FIN/ORG leader can do! So, both traits are strengthening each other, aren't they?

I think you are making the mistake of assuming that Organised does something for your distance maintenance.... remember that it's only your civic maintenance that it reduces. The cheap courthouses, while nice, don't really factor in as much as you seem to be implying. What it does is cut the costs of your civics, which in the early game, I don't find to be a problem at all - I just keep expanding anyway until I get what I want, then I sort my economy out.... organised wont have made the slightest difference by then. Late game Organised takes on more of a role.

In regs to PHI/IND:
1. Engineers cannot be hurried early game!
2. even Wonders need to be build first! If you are a little faster than others doesn't mean a thing in fact! Some may start earlier, some may have a stronger-production city, some may have stone or marble which you don't have or whatever!

1) What do you mean that Engineers can't be hurried in the early game? My first GP is normally an engineer - with some tweaking about, I can normally get the first 3 GP's to be Engineers.

2) Rubbish. If you want that wonder, you will get it... you make it sound like it's all up to the whims of fate. You can control all of the issues you mentioned.... perhaps it doesn't suit your style of play, but you most certainly can do all of the above. When you factor in the incredible lead you can get via bulbing, you definitely hit the wonder-tech first, it takes you half the time to build the wonder, and you can ensure that you build it in a valid, high production city. The AI just doesn't have the same goal oriented ability as a human.

There is MUCH more to building a wonder than only have the industrial trait. Which is in fact the reason why I nearly never play with IND-Leaders at all, except maybe Roosevelt sometimes. So successful IND-playing still depends on a lot of Maybe's, which in fact are NOT in total controllable by the player, in total opposite of FIN/ORG. In my opinion FIN/ORG is the STRONGEST Trait-Combination. PHI/IND would not even be second. Believe me!

With respect, if, as you say, you never play with IND leaders then you clearly aren't pursuing the appropriate type of strategy pointed out here and therefore, as you have shown, you don't understand what is and is not possible wtih this combo. Successful industrial playing does not count on any more "maybes" than any other type of game. Humans are better at goal oriented processes and I can assure you that my gameplay is better than the AI at this.

Again, you haven't tried this combination and you really don't seem to understand the strategy you would use for it...

You also don't seem to understand Organised even though you are claiming it and FIN are the strongest. I think wecan safely say that your playstyle works best with Financial, that's not a problem and not really at issue here. It is however, a different playstyle to the one being outlined.

Instead of theorising about it, why don't you go and mod in the IND/PHI combo as an exercise in learning more playstyles in the game.... take some notes from people who are saying it is strong (i.e. run a high production, specialist economy). Reallly give it a good try, not a half-assed attempt, then come back and give an honest view on your experiences rather than making unfounded observations and remarks.

People are looking at this on paper, missing half the point and then declaring their observations as truth. All I am asking is for those people to give it a try and judge from their experience. Don't get me wrong, I love this combo and it is a lot of fun, but I can really see why it's not in the game.... FIN/ORG doesn't come close!!

 

[Spearthrower]

Not any more than your average Phi leader.

Round we go again!

This is a spiral debate that is comically proving exactly what was stated... it is perfectly modelling the strength of this combo. The idea of a positive feedback loop.

The extra wonders will provide enough of an additional GP source to effectively boost your tech rate by 25-40% throughout the game.

Why for the love of all that's holy wont people try it rather than commenting on what they don't know? It's starting to seem like blind denial.

 

[alpaca]

A question: Do you go for metal casting early when playing Ind and is that what you mean with tweaking for Great Engineers? I think I should try that, it sounds pretty juicy (thinking about picking it up with the Oracle).

I didn't think of that yet... hmm

Besides, something else that makes Ind stronger than you may think is the fact that there are no resources boosting the construction of the Great Lighthouse and the Apostolic Palace. If you play on maps with water, the GL is maybe the strongest ancient wonder (imo even battling the Pyramids but I seem to be getting those almost always when I try it in BtS - the AI seems to ignore them or isn't able to build them properly because they're so expensive) and the AP is insanely good, too, because of the diplomacy options and the extra hammers.

 

[Rotting]

Bla

Nönönö! Sorry!

1.) In principle I do NOT play financial, industrial or spiritual Civs (except Montezuma, I love his UU in regs to superhealing) at all, 'cause in a whole it is to easy --> boring!

2.) if the organized-trait indeed works as you say, then my game does something wrong... I like to play Friedrich, who is organized. I expand rapidly no heed to cost. With the Number of, let's say X cities, I get down to 70% of science. Playing as Tokugawa (love to play him! Strong as hell when used by human player! Aha!! His traits, are they, well, fair?) I get down to 30 to 40% science in te same time with the same techs and number X of cities.
Which is, BECAUSE: you get Monarchy early, you have to, to get your people content. 1st thing, secondly you'll want to get Organized Religion next, gives you 25% Building Production and Missionaries without Monasteries. Then, when I get to Bureaucracy or Feudalism, I usually DO have a large Empire. And ORG does PRETTY well then, doesn't it?

The point is not, if I get the 100% science, but how much more science I get through saving money with ORG and EARNING MORE monetas with FIN.

BUT: this is just an opinion.

In fact I don't even care. As we all see, Tokugawa is a loser as is Alex, because of their behaviour. The traits are in fact secondary to the AI. And the HI? Well, show me someone, who wins on maximum difficulty with maximum Civs on maximum large landmass-map (NO pangaea), then I believe ANY trait to be too good for the HI.

And reg. politeness: I don't care, you needn't, too. Just stay topic.

All in all: I want it in. Several people want it in. Still I don't belive it will ever be implemented. Pointless discussion, isn't it?

 

[Cvntpumeler]

I think you are making the mistake of assuming that Organised does something for your distance maintenance.... remember that it's only your civic maintenance that it reduces. The cheap courthouses, while nice, don't really factor in as much as you seem to be implying. What it does is cut the costs of your civics, which in the early game, I don't find to be a problem at all - I just keep expanding anyway until I get what I want, then I sort my economy out.... organised wont have made the slightest difference by then. Late game Organised takes on more of a role.

I disagree with just this part, slightly. Organized does nothing for distance maintenance, that part is true, but I find it quite a significant advantage in the early game because I always run Organized Religion while I'm REXing to speed Graneries and other buildings. The Org trait is definately worth 10%-20% science slider because of the reduced civic costs when running more expensive civics early.

 

[UnspokenRequest]

The extra wonders will provide enough of an additional GP source to effectively boost your tech rate by 25-40% throughout the game.

Don't you think that Fin/Org and Fin/PHi can provide a similar kind of tech boost than the one you're talking about?

The early engineer strategy is the only real argument as to why this trait combo may be very very strong compared to most. It is the only "über-strategy" (the one I've been asking for) anyone mentionned.

However, a player making good use of Fin/Phi can easily get a tech advance which guarantees him to get all the wonders he really want (thus approaching greatly the effect of Ind/Phi . Especially if the players aims for early great engineers).
In this case, I don't see what Ind/Phi can do, that Fin/Phi can't.

 

[Spearthrower]

2.) if the organized-trait indeed works as you say, then my game does something wrong

It's not the way I say it does... it's the way the game works and has done since vanilla.... it's just common for people to make this incorrect assumption about Org and distance penalties. It only starts to save you money when you start running expensive civics - like Cvntpumeler's Organised Religion (which I also run).... which thereby allows you to keep your slider higher under ORG.

The point is not, if I get the 100% science, but how much more science I get through saving money with ORG and EARNING MORE monetas with FIN.

Oh I agree - but not in the early game like you said before... in the mid and mid to late game - you save a lot of money... but that monetary saving does nothing to boost your science rate directly. Only the additional incoming commerce from FIN does anything to your tech rate, the ORG just lets you put more of your income into your slider. Playing a full blown SE, that'd be largely irrelevent as you wouldn't be relying on cottages for commerce anyway.... and with PHI you are achieving a secondary, additional source of beakers (flasks ) that is in most circumstances unachievable with FIN/CE play.

In fact I don't even care. As we all see, Tokugawa is a loser as is Alex, because of their behaviour. The traits are in fact secondary to the AI.

Again, I agree... I am only talking about for the human here. It is only the human that would have the capacity to so thoroughly and consistently break the game with this trait combo. What the AI would or would not do is irrelevent.

And reg. politeness: I don't care, you needn't, too. Just stay topic.

No, I need to for me! The first iteration of my post above sounded far more grumpy than I meant it to be!

All in all: I want it in. Several people want it in. Still I don't belive it will ever be implemented. Pointless discussion, isn't it?

Just mod it in... of course you can play it. I am actively encouraging people to give it a try... why not? But, I don't think it will be added to the game.... or if it is, it will be the last minute, throw-away type expansion where they chuck everything at the user to get sales and not worry about game balancing.

Don't you think that Fin/Org and Fin/PHi can provide a similar kind of tech boost than the one you're talking about?

ORG? No definitely not.... PHI - yes, it does achieve a part of what I am talking about. The point is that on top of commerce derived science, GP provide an additional source of tech acquisition.... organised most definitely does not do that.... it simply allows you to plunge a higher percentage of your commerce into the slider. Personally, ORG mostly just equates to more cash to me.... which is useful, but it doesn't equate to self-discovered techs.

However, a player making good use of Fin/Phi can easily get a tech advance which guarantees him to get all the wonders he really want (thus approaching greatly the effect of Ind/Phi . Especially if the players aims for early great engineers).

Well that's different than FIN/ORG that many people were talking about. Personally, I think that FIN/PHI is one of the more powerful combos in the game - it suits the hybrid player perfectly, allowing a high powered commerce tech acquisition, with the flexibility of an additional source of tech acquisition.

In this case, I don't see what Ind/Phi can do, that Fin/Phi can't.

Back round we go!

Because you have a further cheap source of GPs that are IN ADDITION to the specialists you can run in your cities. These snowball and help to counter the increasing cost of specialists - each Wonder GP source is effectively doubled... and each Wonder costs half.... that's a ludicrously powerful synergy.

Again, just give it a try.... I can't really say more than that. I've tried it, I can break the game with it. Perhaps it wont suit your play.... perhaps you can change your play a little to accomodate the synergy and find that it also breaks the game for you..... who knows..... until you try?

 

[methane]

A question: Do you go for metal casting early when playing Ind and is that what you mean with tweaking for Great Engineers? I think I should try that, it sounds pretty juicy (thinking about picking it up with the Oracle).

Yes, when you have the industrious trait you definitely should target metal casting early...1/2 price forges are a big part of its power. Helps you get all the other key buildings quickly in that important part of the game, may help you grab an additional wonder or 2, and it can get that early engineering specialist. Of course, you have a big advantage getting the colossus if you have a coastal city with any kind of production.

However, a player making good use of Fin/Phi can easily get a tech advance which guarantees him to get all the wonders he really want (thus approaching greatly the effect of Ind/Phi . Especially if the players aims for early great engineers).
In this case, I don't see what Ind/Phi can do, that Fin/Phi can't.

The tech advantage of Ind/phi is just part of the synergy...you're getting a lot more wonders, and you're getting those wonders quicker. It's not just the technologies, it's the extra health from the hanging gardens you wouldn't have built otherwise, the extra culture from the stonehenge and sistine chapel you wouldn't have built without the traits, etc. Yes if you have industrious or philosophical you can target and get several wonders, but the 2 traits together lets you get many more.

 

[kniteowl]

LOL you can correct me if I'm wrong but isn' the civics cost related to population, the higher your population the higher your Civics cost are so therefore if you're pursuing verticle expansion, for every pop increase, you increase your civics cost, but if you're organized, the cost of that extra pop is halved.

So Organized indirectly cuts Population cost.

I need to build more workers in my game I keep noticing that my citizens are working more and more unimproved tiles therefore my economy suffers :S.