Philosophical/Industrious
- Thread starter L4zXX0r
- Start date
Spearthrower
Thrower of spears
seasnake
Conquistador
I always thought King Solomon would be perfect for this trait combo (built the temple, several buildings, and the book Proverbs is attributed to him). I don't think the AI would have too clear of an edge, but I agree that I'm a player I'd need to up my difficulty (like I do with Rome).
not necessarily.
Walls + castle (i probably have that by that time) = +loads of defense, if i dont have chicken pizza too
If those 2 units are Xbows, chances are they (plus the slaved ones until you are there) and their catapult friend (slavery, hooray) will hold you off.
never underestimate a solid tech lead.
azzaman333
meh
not necessarily.
Walls + castle (i probably have that by that time) = +loads of defense, if i dont have chicken pizza too
If those 2 units are Xbows, chances are they (plus the slaved ones until you are there) and their catapult friend (slavery, hooray) will hold you off.
never underestimate a solid tech lead.
Err, you are over-estimating your ability to get such a solid tech lead. I'll have enough axemen by turn 40-80 (depending on metal location) to take your cities. You won't have a Longbow, or a Wall, or possibly even Archery by that point.
Spearthrower
Thrower of spears
Can you please go into detail what you would do with your axemen in turn 40 - 50 while you are playing a separate Single Player game to me.... I'm really interested! 
Why has this suddenly become a conversation about MP? There was no talk of it before... and if it IS a talk about MP... then of course things are different, I don't see anyone arguing that.
But can we stick to comparing apples and apples please?
Why has this suddenly become a conversation about MP? There was no talk of it before... and if it IS a talk about MP... then of course things are different, I don't see anyone arguing that.
But can we stick to comparing apples and apples please?
azzaman333
meh
Can you please go into detail what you would do with your axemen in turn 40 - 50 while you are playing a separate Single Player game to me.... I'm really interested!
Kill barbarians.
I never think about war that early normally.It's just not that over-powered. People here are acting like fast wonders and great people will get you an instant win, but they dont.
Spearthrower
Thrower of spears
No, they definitely don't get an instant win. They do however get you a tech advantage over your neighbours that grows more and more pronounced, they give a positive feedback loop that grows more and more throughout the game. It doesn't mean an instant win at all, but you can play a pretty standard SE game and be guaranteed a hefty tech advantage over the AI. That tech advantage translates to any kind of win you want.
Don't get me wrong - I've played this combo and it is fun, but in the vanilla game, it is overpowered. It's really simply to modify it in for yourself though, a 1 minute job. Then you can see if it's fun more than once or twice.
Don't get me wrong - I've played this combo and it is fun, but in the vanilla game, it is overpowered. It's really simply to modify it in for yourself though, a 1 minute job. Then you can see if it's fun more than once or twice.
azzaman333
meh
No, they definitely don't get an instant win. They do however get you a tech advantage over your neighbours that grows more and more pronounced, they give a positive feedback loop that grows more and more throughout the game. It doesn't mean an instant win at all, but you can play a pretty standard SE game and be guaranteed a hefty tech advantage over the AI. That tech advantage translates to any kind of win you want.
Don't get me wrong - I've played this combo and it is fun, but in the vanilla game, it is overpowered. It's really simply to modify it in for yourself though, a 1 minute job. Then you can see if it's fun more than once or twice.
Fin/Org is much more overpowered in my experiences. Ind/Phi wouldn't be good for me since I don't play a SE. Cha/Agg isn't good for me because I'm not much of a warmonger. It's all about adapting to your traits and manipulating them to the max (which I am too lazy to do)
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
azzaman333
meh
Like I said, it depends a LOT on how you play.
alpaca
King of Ungulates
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2006
- Messages
- 2,322
Nah I don't think I can win on Deity without a good early beater
Although Phi/Ind might do it, hmm...
Anyways, I don't think it's stronger than our beloved Dutchmen or Darius. Fin/Cre plus the dike is extremely exploitable even on Pangaea and Fin/Org is very good, too.
I just don't believe there's something like a forbidden trait combo. You can always balance it out by giving a bad UB and/or UU. For example, the HRE's traits are mediocre imo but the building and unit are both good and you can have a religion at the start so they're fine.
azzaman333
meh
Nah I don't think I can win on Deity without a good early beater
Although Phi/Ind might do it, hmm...
Anyways, I don't think it's stronger than our beloved Dutchmen or Darius. Fin/Cre plus the dike is extremely exploitable even on Pangaea and Fin/Org is very good, too.
I just don't believe there's something like a forbidden trait combo. You can always balance it out by giving a bad UB and/or UU. For example, the HRE's traits are mediocre imo but the building and unit are both good and you can have a religion at the start so they're fine.
And if you want overpowered, thats what Unrestricted Leaders are for!
alpaca
King of Ungulates
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2006
- Messages
- 2,322
Yep exactly. Although I rarely use it because having Ragnar lead Praetorians is just not very interesting
BYC
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2006
- Messages
- 206
It makes me wonder if any leader is BAD for Rome. I mean, since praets are so damn good, what can possible hold them back instead of improve them, or the lands you conquer with them?Yep exactly. Although I rarely use it because having Ragnar lead Praetorians is just not very interesting
Like maybe Qin? Early wonders really go against massing praets, and Protective doesn't really come into play until gunpowder probably.
azzaman333
meh
Any protective leader I'd say doesn't go as well with Rome.
Silence101
King
We had this discussion in another thread - about the PHI/IND trait set. I made a mod that gave this trait to Suleiman, and though I didn't find it overpowered, I can see where a veteran player may be able to take advantage of it. Personally, I don't think the solution is to omit the trait set though... I think the problem here is the SE becoming too powerful in general, especially in the early game.
I experimented with adding a max world wonder per city limit in order to nerf the SE a bit. To a degree, I think it helps, but there was some valid concern that this method nerf's the industrious trait in general.
Still, I think there should be some disincentive to running an SE - like a matinence cost for running specialists or something. If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them.
I experimented with adding a max world wonder per city limit in order to nerf the SE a bit. To a degree, I think it helps, but there was some valid concern that this method nerf's the industrious trait in general.
Still, I think there should be some disincentive to running an SE - like a matinence cost for running specialists or something. If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them.
alpaca
King of Ungulates
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2006
- Messages
- 2,322
Well the incentive to running a cottage economy is that you get more Commerce with the same number of citizens. And you get more bonuses for towns later on, especially when taking Universal Suffrage and Free Speech.
For me that's enough
BYC: Yeah I guess Qin is pretty much an anti-praet, although getting the Great Wall out wouldn't be so bad, either. I'd argue Sitting Bull is even worse because the UB and both traits are totally useless when going Praet-mode
On topic: Well nothing to say hehe, sorry guys
Silence101
King
The SE does give way a bit in the late game, you're right. Still, the primary use of commerce in Civ is for research. If you're running an SE, you can generate mass amounts of research without relying so much on commerce - so not getting as much commerce per citizen isn't as big a deal. It's the powerhouse tech researching that makes the SE dangerous early.
methane
Warlord
BYC: Yeah I guess Qin is pretty much an anti-praet, although getting the Great Wall out wouldn't be so bad, either. I'd argue Sitting Bull is even worse because the UB and both traits are totally useless when going Praet-mode
Well, philosophical + forums is a pretty nice combo for specialist economies. And with prats & protective archers, you'd have a hard time invading Sitting Bull of the Romans.
Similar threads
