Philosophical/Metaphysical discussions related to C2C Modding

primem0ver

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Me and Thunderbird have gotten into some interesting philosophical/metaphysical discussions over the course of our time together while modding C2C. These discussion have arisen in various threads, discussing what should be possible for players to do in C2C and some of the tangential directions modding could go.

There have been some complaints about carrying on these discussions in their respective threads and rightly so since they are fairly off the original topics even if they are distantly related. But we have enjoyed our discussions and wish to continue them so I have created this thread for that purpose.

Keep in mind that this forum thread is of a speculative nature and will probably touch on areas of philosophy, science, religion, and some of the other interesting aspects of life that make us human. Feel free to read, participate, contribute, laugh at (lightheartedly), or ignore :). But please, lets keep the forum civil and free of ridicule so that we don't put down the opinions and beliefs of members of the C2C community.

Before discussion begins, I would like to give it a starting point. I will be copying quotes from the most recent discussion on the possibility of time travel over the next little while. It may take some time :D

@Thunderbrd
Feel free to add your own introduction if you wish. For everyone else...

The quoted conversation has been completed. THIS DISCUSSION IS NOW OPEN!!
 
Only: Thanks for getting this setup and gathering the quotes from our current conversation there. I did have some more to add to that off your last post on the topic but I haven't taken the time to setup this thread so its appreciated that you're doing it now ;) Once you've got the quotes over we may continue :D
 
One question TB. Should we set this up as an index... so that future philosophical discussions can have their own topic threads? Or should we just have all philosophical discussion in this thread?
 
Maybe best to keep it all here for the sanity of the site moderators who would usually seek to quell such discussions in general so would certainly take issue with multiple threads on these matters.

Note to said site mods: These discussions are very much a matter of helping with mod plans. We're really debating out the acceptable world views to include or disclude into the scope of C2C. In otherwords, we're so on the fringe with our mod that we're entering into the need to attempt to persuade each other as to what is or is not viably possible. This is our template for those debates and discussions. May not sound like it focuses on the modding aspect, but I assure you... its very important to that goal.
 
Ok... This was the first post where our time travel discussion in the Underwater cities development thread started (on page 5). I will post each quote separately as though they were posts within this thread. The person quoted is the one who responded to each of these successive posts.

As Hydro mentions briefly above, arguing about the real-world economic viability of any of these concepts is silly and pointless, as they are all entirely theoretical. Yes, I know they are trying to build the city-ship, but it's not there yet, so we don't know if it's actually viable or not. IMHO, the discussion should not be about the real-world feasibility of these cities, as none of us knows that (have you built one in reality?), but how to incorporate them into the game.

Personally, looking only at real-world, modern day technology, I can understand the argument to require Methane as a resource. However, looking only at modern day, real-world technology, I don't think that any of what is proposed is possible. To me it seems that we will need at least a few advances in materials technology (to withstand the pressures), and miniaturization of current hydroponic and desalinization technologies (among others) before any of this is possible. Thus it stands to reason that by the time this is possible, we may have developed better energy technologies as well, and thus would not require Methane. Sure, it would still be helpful and a useful resource, but probably not required.
 
Daedwartin's reply (these little "reply" remarks are necessary to post as a separate comment):

To further this point, time travel is a tech later down for crying out loud...physic as we know it does not allow such a thing. Obviously to do it requires stupendous amounts of energy. It's Linda pointless to argue its not possible to do this with that fact
 
This is where I joined the discussion:
In my opinion/belief, Einstein is not the only reason time travel is impossible. There are many scientific and para-scientific issues that make time travel an impossibility that scientists sometimes overlook.

The most obvious one overlooked is that it would violate the law of conservation of mass. The universal gravitational constant would no longer be constant if matter could actually move through time since it depends on the amount of matter in the given universe at any moment. Moving matter backward through time would make it so that more matter can exist in the beginning than the end of the universe. And if moved forward, more matter would exist in the end of the universe than in the middle or beginning.

There are many other issues with time travel. More importantly (for some): from a game perspective: any tech that allows such a thing in the game would not have a real application in the game.
 
MagnusIlluminus then responded:

I do agree with you about Time Travel, in game anyway. It just would not be possible to allow units to travel back in time, well not unless there are several dedicated Viewports, one for each era. That seems wasteful to me though. However, what it could do in game is allow for the harvesting of resources/creatures from deep in the past. Yes, I can hear the arguments now about that causing disruptions in history, etc. In game, we'd just have to make sure that the resources/creatures harvested this way were ones that were not used by the Civs at the time. They would have to be of the type found in that region. As for breaking the 'laws' of conservation of matter, etc, they would be better described as theories, especially in this case as there is no way to test them. Obviously, if some future humanity ever does figure out how to time travel, they will have learned things that prove that much of what we think we know today is Just Plain Wrong. Rather like how today we know that the Earth is round(ish) rather than flat as much of the ancient world thought. Even if they weren't harvesting whole resources, they could perhaps 'sample' or 'read' the DNA of the plant/animal so as to recreate it in that future setting. "Bears went extinct 200 years ago? No problem, we'll just send back a probe, read the DNA of an ancient Bear, and recreate it now."
 
Thunderbird now enters the discussion:

As for time travel... I believe it exists. At the sub-atomic level we've observed particles traveling backwards in time. The 'constant of mass' is merely a best approximation. What messes with our heads is that we attempt to rationalize it via our understanding of a fixed timeline. The Grandfather clause causes us trouble: If I went back into the past and killed my Grandfather before he seeded my Father would I be killing myself?

The answer, the only rational answer is no. There are a truly infinite number of parallel realities that branch off from every moment in time, reflecting every possibility that could've spanned from that moment. If you travel back in time, you travel along the same route that got you where you were in the present before your travel. But upon arriving your very arrival has changed the future and a butterfly effect has simply erased the likelihood of anything you knew about future events actually taking place from the moment you emerge into the past. You are now in a differing potential time stream and it is likely you may never return to the one you once knew. And anything you do will have absolutely no effect on the future you came from as in that time stream, you were never here at this point in history.

Thus, from a game perspective, time travel could open up little more than an interesting ability to send however many units and bring however much tech you wish back with you to any specified save from the same game that you're playing in the future. From there you may play with said unit and tech advancements as if they were all suddenly achieved on that date. But its a different game entirely (and a gimpy one at that ;) ) It could not manipulate the present (future) in your original game at all.

If you were to send units forward in time, however, you could specify a date at which time they would arrive and between the sending and then, they would be little more than a memory in the game data. Once the date arrives, you could suddenly have all those units showing up. This could have some rather strange and interesting strategic applications... lol.
 
Hydro's first two cents
@Thunderbrd

I have said this before in the event thread but I would like to have a a special time traveler event. Where randomly you get a high tech unit from the "future". However once you reach time travel technology you will loose a unit of the same type. Simulating it going back in time.
 
My response to Hydro:
If you are going to do this, make it an option. I really don't want time travel to have any part of my game.
 
Another comment by Daedwartin about the feasibility of a game option:
I don't think they can make it a option. Go check your civics list.
 
Thunderbrds opinion on time travel as a game option was then posted:
We should be able to after the project I'm up to now is completed.

Personally, H, I have to say I don't think such a time travel mechanism would be rationally possible from a realistic perspective. I do believe I could successfully argue the possibility of time travel but I can't support the concept of the present being accessible by the future unless we presume that we are NOT in the core or 'central' timestream - the first time through so to speak. If we aren't in the first go 'round then its possible, but it would not require that we then send units back in time in the future because the units that show up would not be coming from our own timestream, they'd be stemming from an alternative one that we will never see because the future would be permanently altered by their arrival.

Thus, the 'Greys' (Aliens) may well be ourselves from the future but its a different timeline they come from and to come here they've permanently severed any ability to return to the same future they knew.
 
MagnusIlluminus responds to TB's first comment:

That is one theory about how time works, but not the only one. It is also possible that there is really only one 'time stream' that may have eddies here and there, but overall is just one flow. In this theory, the 'present' that you traveled back from was made possible by the actions that you took by traveling back in time. Thus the future that you know is still there. I'm not saying "you are wrong and I'm right", I'm just saying that all this is theory and we really don't know the truth.
 
TB's response:

While not a logic 'flaw' and that theory is not completely impossible, to embrace the potential for that theory is to embrace that we do not have any true will of our own but are rather puppets to a predefined set of determinations - its to believe every moment is already mapped out, destiny is ultimately undeniable, and everything we choose to do has no possibility of an alternative choice. Why live if this is true? For the mere act of discovery? The wonderment of which is also already preplanned for you? I can't believe fate is so strongly defined.
 
My comments on TB's first post.

As for time travel... I believe it exists. At the sub-atomic level we've observed particles traveling backwards in time.

NO WE HAVEN'T
Please do not pass along information that is false. I am an avid follower of particle physics because it fascinates me and this has never been announced. Tachyons have been theorized but never observed. Many scientists don't take them seriously as they violate most interpretations of Einsteins theory of relativity. I am not saying I subscribe to these interpretations but please do not pass along false information.

If you really think about it, it is possible that time is not really a "dimension" as space is. Time is simply a measurement of change. If no change ever occurred, time would be irrelevant and immeasurable. So, even if it is not an entirely scientific position, there is a lot of sense in saying that everything in the universe exists outside of time and that time is only an anomaly that occurs in modes of existence where change is possible. If this is true, then time is not something that can be traversed at all. It is simply the result of change.

The answer, the only rational answer is no. There are a truly infinite number of parallel realities that branch off from every moment in time, reflecting every possibility that could've spanned from that moment. If you travel back in time, you travel along the same route that got you where you were in the present before your travel. But upon arriving your very arrival has changed the future and a butterfly effect has simply erased the likelihood of anything you knew about future events actually taking place from the moment you emerge into the past. You are now in a differing potential time stream and it is likely you may never return to the one you once knew. And anything you do will have absolutely no effect on the future you came from as in that time stream, you were never here at this point in history.

Again, this is an old theory and not a tested reality. This theory is no longer popular either as it violates standard understanding of general common sense principles of physics such as the law of conservation of mass. If reality branched with every quantum possibility to "create" a new universe, an entire universe, with all its mass would be brought into being out of nothing with the passage of every instant in time. In truth, sentience collapses quantum possibility with observation and where intelligence exists, with choice; necessitating only one outcome.
 
Thunderbrd Responds:
So your argument is valid if you prescribe to a theory that states that our consciousness is a part of and bound by the physics of the reality we exist in and that we are little more than what we now dub AI's. But given that I feel reality itself is much more fluid and manipulable with belief alone, I will continue to believe that what is more logical is that time travel exists on the basis of all reality being limitless potential. My one most foundational belief is: Nothing is impossible. If we imagine it, it can happen, no matter how odd or weird or strange that imagination may be. Outside of the constrictive 'rules' of life that we've established for ourselves, we exist in a realm of all possibility - and in my view, the reality is, even the game of solid reality we seem to play is merely constricted by our choice to accept it as such. Thus, if WE choose to accept that time travel may exist, then it does. If not, it does not.

Therefore the question is not 'can it exist', the question is 'how to we unlock it for our use and what value would it have for us if we do?'

What is your take on the Tao of Physics?
 
Then I respond:
LOL. Another fun conversation!

No, that isn't the only situation in which my argument is valid. I will explain one more of several situations in which my argument could be valid.

I don't buy that consciousness is a physical phenomena as we define "physics." I don't believe that "matter" as we define it is all that exists. And now physics is finally catching up to that possibility with the "discovery" of "dark matter" and the belief in "dark energy."

I personally believe that all constituents of reality are ultimately timeless; that what exists has always existed and will always exist; This is also known as being "self existent."

Time travel is not possible because it contradicts self-existence; it means that you can create something out of nothing; it means you can create or destroy something that is self-existent which contradicts the meaning of self-existent. Another way to look at it is to say that you can move something that is anchored outside of time (has an existence independent of time) through time. Again this is self-contradictory.

Even if my beliefs go beyond the scope of science, they can (and are by scientists) still be applied to matter and energy as we know it. I think it is ironic that science itself has laws that when ultimately truly understood (and believed), negate the possibility of time travel. These are known as the laws of conservation.

"Matter cannot be created or destroyed; it can only change form" and...
"Energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only change form".

As Einstein discovered, these statements are equivalent since matter is a a form of energy.

If matter cannot be created or destroyed, then it cannot move through time because it is, by the laws of conservation, self existent. To move matter into the past would be the same as creating matter. For the particles or constituents of matter would exist both as the original, and the new duplicate that has now joined it's antecedent self in the past.

So what about the future? We still essentially have the same problem. If we move something into the future, we violate self-existence; we are removing something that is anchored in existence itself (which is timeless) out of existence.

If you want to believe that time travel is possible, you will have to believe that you can create something out of nothing; that the laws of conservation are not correct.

In a sense I agree with the statement that "anything is possible." However, I would add one stipulation: "anything that isn't self contradictory is possible." Otherwise an omnipotent being would be able to create a rock so big he couldn't lift it.
 
TB's next comment:

I'm not able to wrap my head around the concept that we are somehow creating or destroying matter/energy by moving it forward or backwards in time. There really is no constant value to an infinite is there?

I can agree with some of your statements and its nice to see more agreement in this than disagreement. But why is it so impossible to consider that there are infinite layers of overlapping timestreams? Without such a concept in play, indeed there are serious logic flaws with 99% of timetravel theories.

I think part of the argument you are presenting really hinges on a paradigm that revolves around the infinitely debateable reality as Objective vs reality as Perspective.

In some ways, you are right that for the one who moves in time (which we all do at a fairly steady pace that SEEMS to travel along a constant due to our ability to measure it in an objective manner), they are self constant and their experience of the motion of time through a time portal would be completely relative to them, but for the more 'objective' timestream, there's nothing to say it could not be done.

The argument that "If you want to believe that time travel is possible, you will have to believe that you can create something out of nothing; that the laws of conservation are not correct" does not apply because to move something is not to create it nor destroy it. You are locking onto creation and destruction as being only within the span of the timeframe we are currently in, and in this case, sure, why shouldn't it be possible to create or destroy utilizing time-portation?

(Besides that, even general 'rules' of physics are laws that perhaps may not 'naturally' be defied but why could they not be defied with the application of technology or powerful belief?)

Do you have equal objection to Teleportation as a general whole then?

And just because some alternative ways of explaining Tachyon motion have been floated and are equally as rational does not discount the possibility that the original theories regarding their anomalous measurements could yet be correct. Once more, the belief of the observer at that sort of level does note-worthily adjust the actual measurable results of subatomic study.
 
My segmented reply:

I'm not able to wrap my head around the concept that we are somehow creating or destroying matter/energy by moving it forward or backwards in time. There really is no constant value to an infinite is there?

That is why I included the second example of something anchored outside of time. If you don't follow that either, it is hard to explain. I can try again though if need be.

?? Infinity is not a value, it is an idea. What are you asking here?

I can agree with some of your statements and its nice to see more agreement in this than disagreement. But why is it so impossible to consider that there are infinite layers of overlapping timestreams? Without such a concept in play, indeed there are serious logic flaws with 99% of timetravel theories.

I don't believe it is impossible. In a manner of speaking I agree with you; but those "overlapping timestreams" are confined to specific dimensions in which something can change. Think string theory. Something that is eternal (self-existent; exists independently of time) such as a string in string theory cannot literally move through time because time is only an aspect of the string's existence that occurs because of the string's ability to "vibrate" (i.e. change).

I think part of the argument you are presenting really hinges on a paradigm that revolves around the infinitely debateable reality as Objective vs reality as Perspective.

LOL. Not really. The funny thing is that in a sense, we are talking from the same perspective. I believe that perspective is at least as basic to reality as it's "objective" qualities. The only difference is that I believe in both.

In some ways, you are right that for the one who moves in time (which we all do at a fairly steady pace that SEEMS to travel along a constant due to our ability to measure it in an objective manner), they are self constant and their experience of the motion of time through a time portal would be completely relative to them, but for the more 'objective' timestream, there's nothing to say it could not be done.

Unfortunately, time doesn't move along at a steady pace. Einstein predicted and we have actually observed that time actually changes the rate at which it ticks (moves differently) depending on the speed of the object and the amount of gravity (matter) in it's vicinity. This is one reason why Einstein concluded that space and time are actually inseparable as dimensions.

The argument that "If you want to believe that time travel is possible, you will have to believe that you can create something out of nothing; that the laws of conservation are not correct" does not apply because to move something is not to create it nor destroy it. You are locking onto creation and destruction as being only within the span of the timeframe we are currently in, and in this case, sure, why shouldn't it be possible to create or destroy utilizing time-portation?

Yes it does apply. And your model proves it. The "problem" here is that you are viewing time as a dimension that is separable from space. You are also assuming that existence is subservient to time. If that were true, then you would be right and so would I. If existence were subservient to time (in other words, if existence were an aspect of time), then matter could be created and destroyed. It could wink (technically vibrate) in and out of existence. And since time is the ultimate substrate of reality, it could be moved through.

However, if time is an aspect of existence (specifically an object's existence), then something that self-exists independent of time can only experience time as an aspect of reality. Moving through time at will is impossible because ultimately, the object exists independent of time. It is the same thing as believing that an object can be in two places at once.

(Besides that, even general 'rules' of physics are laws that perhaps may not 'naturally' be defied but why could they not be defied with the application of technology or powerful belief?)

Because technology and belief will never be able to do something that is self-contradictory.

Do you have equal objection to Teleportation as a general whole then?

That depends on... the nature of what is being "teleported." The short answer is no. However I do not believe that teleportation is possible without involving other aspects of reality that are not considered part of understood science.

To give a specific example: it has been experimentally observed that two photons which are "entangled" at the quantum level will affect each other simultaneously regardless of the space (distance) that exists between them. If a quantum change occurs in one, the other will experience the same change simultaneously. There is no ordinary explanation for this except that the two photons are connected in some way that cannot be measured using dimensions that we currently have access too within the bounds of understood science. Apparently, their is something about energy that is not bound by space itself. Therefore, I can conclude that it may be possible to connect two points in space through means (or dimensions) that science cannot currently access. However, I do not believe that something can simply disappear from one point in space and suddenly appear in another point in space without something that connects those two points. That would also violate self-existence.

And just because some alternative ways of explaining Tachyon motion have been floated and are equally as rational does not discount the possibility that the original theories regarding their anomalous measurements could yet be correct. Once more, the belief of the observer at that sort of level does note-worthily adjust the actual measurable results of subatomic study.

Again, please do not speak of tachyons as though they exist. They are theoretical particles only. And those theories have problems.

And its going to always be true that C2C is not for the impatient. But don't let the comments of the others badger your freedom to express your opinions here - I've always appreciated the input even if we're not always in agreement, and I really appreciate the tasks you've taken on for us!

LOL. Well said. On that note... I wish we had a sub forum here for off topic discussion. I love philosophising like this. It is always interesting. However, we should probably be careful not to stray too far.
 
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