Philosophical/Metaphysical discussions related to C2C Modding
- Thread starter primem0ver
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primem0ver
Emperor
primem0ver
Emperor
TB's next response:
What I was saying about Infinity... you seem to believe there is a constant mass to the universe? How can you establish a number, to represent such a constant, when the universe is infinite?
I believe you may be right about some of my basic presumptions. Without time, nothing may have a definition at all. Even a picture has an amount of time it had exposure to take the image. If there were no exposure time, you'd have no picture.
I see time as being somewhat separable from space but connected as well. I believe that the connection is exactly what rationalizes one possible means of time travel itself. Move faster than the speed of light and you move backwards through time because you end up entering into a vibratory state that hits an i number (imaginary so to speak) and is thus moving in negative proportion to the (majority of the) rest of existence.
Without continuing to debate endlessly on the topic, shouldn't we, as Humans, not be asking if something is impossible, but rather assuming that it is and we simply need to figure out how to do it? If we find it is in fact impossible then dang that sucks but then again we may well not have all the data either and be giving up on a concept because we don't see the full picture. I admit I don't know ALL the physics knowledge that we've obtained through the last few decades in particular, but nevertheless, everything we think we know is, as LeftBower points out, subject to change. Therefore, the FIRST thing we must admit is that for all our arguments, we don't know the truth yet. In such an admittable vacuum of proof, I don't understand why anyone would feel comfortable embracing a theory about time travel that states it cannot exist!
In fact, archaeology, I believe, has given us some ample evidence that it does, that there have been beings on Earth whom have been utilizing the technology and have left massively enduring structures designed to aid them in determining wherever they may BE in time whenever they visit. But perhaps that's a conversation for another thread entirely
primem0ver
Emperor
Another segmented response of mine:
Yes. I believe the universe as we understand it has a constant, non-infinite mass. The universal gravitational constant strongly suggests that this is the case. Conventional scientists do not believe in the existence of what are termed "actual infinities" (an infinite number applied to real physical objects). As the matter of fact, most religious philosophers do not believe in actual infinities either with the exception of God. Several religious philosophers have used arguments against an actual infinity as an attempt to debunk Mormonism since Mormon theology makes several statements about the existence of actual infinities.
The universe may very well not be infinite in terms of "space." Some current theories suggest that the universe has an edge. Other's believe that in terms of spacetime it has a finite shape that allows continual movement in a single direction. Think of a sphere or a mobius strip.
I believe it was Einstein who believed that the "infinity" of the universe wasn't truly an infinity; that if you were to travel the entire length of the universe, you would eventually find yourself back where you started. An interesting idea...
Even though I believe that the "universe" constists of a constant mass, I do not necessarily believe that everything is finite. I believe it is possible that existence itself is infinite. Do I believe in an actual infinity? I suppose in principle I do. But I do not believe it is possible for a single universe to contain infinity.
Pretty much how I predicted you saw things. And you are not alone. But my point (the way I see it) is that each photon (energy) that was absorbed by the photographic paper and then transformed into a different type of (chemical) energy through the chemical reaction on the paper in your example still exists at a singe point in spacetime. Each quanta of energy has a mono (single) existence; it will always exist at a single "somewhere" that necessitates a "somewhen" because the "when" is simply a result of its ability to change position.
The reason I do not believe in time travel is because my assumptions negate it as internally contradictory. And as I said before, any contradiction is necessarily impossible. For example, assuming P is always true, then not P is necessarily always false. Not P can never be true. In principle, this is similar to my view of existence.
Assuming time is subservient to self-existence (which I reason must be so below), then an object cannot move to the past or future because to do so would cause moments in which it does not exist, and/or moments in which it has a dual existence (it is in two places at once). I know you see this as just "moving" through time but if something is self-existent then it is anchored outside of time and moving through time by necessity would result in the contradiction of being in two places at once OR not existing for a section (period) of spacetime at all which is contradictory to being self-existent.
The reason I believe that things must self-exist is because the way I see it, creating something out of nothing is self-contraditory. If something exists then it (or at least it's constintuents) must have always existed in one form or another. To me this suggests/implies that it exists independent of time. Experiments with entangled photons are indirect evidence of this independence of time in my opinion since two photons separated by an indefinite amount of space will simultaneously affect one another no matter how large that distance is.
In fact, archaeology, I believe, has given us some ample evidence that it does, that there have been beings on Earth whom have been utilizing the technology and have left massively enduring structures designed to aid them in determining wherever they may BE in time whenever they visit. But perhaps that's a conversation for another thread entirely
LOL. Archaeology is not evidence of this at all. In fact, it can easily be interpreted to mean almost the opposite. These massively enduring structures are meant to be monuments. Some may have been territorial markers. We have our own massively enduring structures and they certainly were not built to tell us when we visit another time what age it currently is. The Lincoln memorial comes to mind. And we have thousands of objects made of stone that could easily survive for tens to hundreds of thousands of years.
In fact, such an ability to endure is evidence that they were not built to tell time. Things that change very little make it more difficult to determine their age. If they were so advanced to be able to do what you suggest, the simplest way to create an accurate time marker would be to get a very large radioactive sample (restricted to alpha or beta emission to avoid harming surrounding life) with a medium range half life and embed it in one of these large structures. Potassium-40 would be ideal since potassium is common and it has a half life of 1.3 billion years; a good mid-range period of time. If fine time resolutions were necessary, then Uranium-234 with its 80,000 year half life would be useful though Uranium is considerably more rare. To my knowledge no such artificial specimen has ever been found.
primem0ver
Emperor
That was the last post regarding this topic. ls612 pleaded with us to get back to the topic and continue the discussion somewhere else. So here we are. And let the discussion continue!
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
That's gonna be a tough one to sell me on. How does a gravitational consistency suggest the universe has a constant, non-infinite mass.
Oh, and I'm not saying any given universe has infinite mass, just the infinite potential for mass.
The first of those is as ridiculous as belief that the earth is flat. The next question that immediately follows is... what's beyond that? Nothing? What's beyond the nothing? lol Now we're back to Crystal Sphere cosmology - maybe there's some truth to it but then our concept of Universe must expand to include yet another layer thereafter, even if that layer is a void... like... space???
The second of those I actually agree with with the exception that I believe that strip is expanding and lengthening and contracting and shrinking all the time and do not believe it has a constant dimension. I've always believed that if you point in any direction, you'd be pointing at the back of your hand. I believe this is true for size as well. Grow large enough and you'd grow back into the size you're at - pretty much impossible, yes but in theory. The interesting trick about that though is that there IS room for more to insert and be deleted between point A and point A in any given direction, and when insertion takes place, it expands that length.
And interestingly enough, I believe TIME itself is just another directional axis that this whole discussion applies to.
Thus, I'm not saying the universe is truly infinite, I'm saying its potential is truly infinite. I guess at the core, I prescribe to the belief that its very possible to create mass from nothing and destroy mass down to nothing because I believe that nothing itself does not really exist. I believe that all space is just potential energy as is and that matter/energy is simply a coalescing of that space. It's very resistant to such creation or destruction however and this is the realm of mysticism and divine power rather than what scientific manipulation can usually achieve. It is BELIEF that guides the creation and destruction of mass, not any externally active process, if that makes any sense.
The point I was making about archaeology was that most of the ancient temples recorded the dating of the spring equinox in a very peculiar manner that even today allows us to pinpoint almost the exact year the temple was built due to the constant and very gradual de-calibration that these pinpoints of light on equinox bring. Therefore these temples allow one to easily chart where one is in time relative to the creation of the temple.
All of these were monolithic temples, were extremely commonly created during the Ancient to Pre-Historic times, were feats of construction you wouldn't expect humans to be capable of, even if we CAN figure out how they COULD, took place in scattered locations all over the globe - where people were said to have no contact between them, had very marginal survival benefits to those people who built them - certainly nothing that indicates a cause for such a sweeping phase of these temple constructions, and were all made of such enduring materials that not only do they stand today but are still likely to outlive most of the structures we build now. Additionally, they almost all were placed in unusually stable geographic locations on the planet and most of them connect to each other in a planetary grid pattern that suggests all too strongly that they were used as global mapping centerpoints. No way the civilizations that were said to have built them would've been even capable of making them align up in such perfect geometric patterns globally like that. I conclude, therefore, that they were made, perhaps with human assistance, by an advanced race who felt it was very important to be able to tell time, not just in days or years but in units of centuries as well. This last part suggests... time travelers.
Time machines in a timeline splitting universe can be used to replicate stuff.
Make a time machine with a button that has a trap door in front of it and a table with a diamond on the other side of the trap door.
Stand half a minute on the trap door, then pocket the diamond, enter your time machine and travel back 15 seconds. That causes a timeline split. Your past self stands on the trap door, so press the button that opens the trap door, then stand half a minute on the trap door, pocket the diamond, travel back 15 seconds. Repeat until your trap is full of past yous or your pocket is full of diamonds.
Then travel back to 5s after the start and push the button. You have a pocket full of diamonds and only one past you in the trap to deal with.
Make a time machine with a button that has a trap door in front of it and a table with a diamond on the other side of the trap door.
Stand half a minute on the trap door, then pocket the diamond, enter your time machine and travel back 15 seconds. That causes a timeline split. Your past self stands on the trap door, so press the button that opens the trap door, then stand half a minute on the trap door, pocket the diamond, travel back 15 seconds. Repeat until your trap is full of past yous or your pocket is full of diamonds.
Then travel back to 5s after the start and push the button. You have a pocket full of diamonds and only one past you in the trap to deal with.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Lol... took me a while to envision what you were explaining but... so true! (though does not take the travel time into consideration, in a greater timeframe sequence the same could basically work. But you'd sure be about to piss yourself off wouldn't you? lol!)
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Wait so you would not meet yourself at the trap door and the table too?
Link to video.
Such as "time loops".... Fartsparkel !
I pushed the button and past me fell through the trap door (where all other past mes are as well) so in this timeline past me never went to the table which means the way is free for me.
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