[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[IvoryPavane]

Very fair however...



Not particularly true.

No other civilization has the power to use the colonial cards and wonders in the same style as Dido. Those cards are balanced around the fact that colonial settlements are weaker in yields due to their latent settlement period on a different continent that are frequently unsafe for settling until much later in the game.

Phoenicia is the only civilization that can use those cards (and one particular wonder) to power her core cities and I'm almost 100% certain the developers took this into consideration when designing Dido. They even brought it up in the stream.

With regards to Free Inquiry, few other civilizations can achieve similar results in the classical age. It requires Harbors and Commercial Hubs. The former is not appealing for most civilizations, and the latter is not something a standard civilization would have enough of in the classical age to actually make much out of to the same degree. Furthermore, not all civilizations can easily receive golden ages in the classical era in the first place, while Phoenicia is essentially guaranteed as all its uniques are in the ancient/early classical era.

Also, many civilizations in turn opt for Monumentalism to achieve some measure of efficient settling. Phoenicia doesn't need it.

It's why I say that Phoenicia's power isn't immediately obvious. It requires some level of understanding of the game's mechanics and general flow. I'm certain it will become more evident in practice.

Hahaha well I agree, and have said all of this, right along with you.

Didos power is utilising her ability to rapidly expand with the games core mechanics. I’ve said this right from the start, and argued with her decriers

My main point is that she takes a bit of effort, and a lot of brains to use to maximum capacity whereas Korea can set a few Seowons and watch some RuPaul while she waits to win.

So from a Deity darling, it isn’t that she is “better” than Dido, and I’m almost 100% certain Didos overall yield threshold is higher, the effort - power ratio is much lower on Korea, so she seems more efficient, which is why she seems to come out as more popular in these “analysis” videos

 

[Ziad]

My main point is that she takes a bit of effort, and a lot of brains to use to maximum capacity whereas Korea can set a few Seowons and watch some RuPaul while she waits to win.

Bahahhahaa

So from a Deity darling, it isn’t that she is “better” than Dido, and I’m almost 100% certain Didos overall yield threshold is higher, the effort - power ratio is much lower on Korea, which is why she seems to come out as more popular in these “analysis” videos

Agreed.

 

[Deggial]

Thank you for your kind answers, guys.
I couldn't respond earlier as I had to leave.

It seems as if I have to give YnAMP a try ...
(It has to be updated for GS, I guess? All those volcanos, flood planes and geothermal wells ...)

 

[Lord Lakely]

Give me the Hittites and I'll quibble with this later.

Hang on,

Hittite Civ Ability: Gifts of the Storm God: Start the game with all strategic resources already visible. Districts can be built on top of Strategic Resources, and receive +2 of their primary yield if they are. Improving any Strategic resource with the prequisite technology grants Hittites a copy of the most advanced unit they can build that also uses that resource.
Unique Unit: Mesedi: Replaces the Chariot. Ignores Zone of Control and damages any enemy unit it passes. Upgrades to the Knight.
Unique District: Crucible: Unique Industrial Zone, unlocks at Bronze Working. +50 Storage for Strategic Resources. If built on a strategic resource, provides double extraction of that resource.

Leader: Puduhepa:
Leader Ability: World's First Peace: She and her Friends receive +5% Production for each Friendship and +5% Production for each alliance, scaling with level. Signing a peace treaty instantly creates a Declaration of Friendship between the Hittites and their former enemy.
Agenda: Forge of Kizzuwatna: Wants to control as many different Strategic resources as possible and hates Civs that have access to Strategic Resources she doesn't have. Likes Civs that lack resources she has access to (quality OR quantity) or who gift her resources.

Start bias: Hills (5), Iron (2), Horses (2)

For Zaarin specifically (to fix his OCD):
City List: Hattusa (*), Anisa, Tarsa, Tarhuntassa, Ugarit, Nerik, Alaca, Sapinuwa, Azatiwataya, Zippalanda, Ankuwa, Karkamis, etc.
Hattusa is replaced by Washukanni.

There you go. Now let's continue squabbling about Phoenicia.

 

[Pietato]

Are Great Admirals unchanged in GS? Most of them still suck, and Dido will be swimming in them

 

[Sagax]

Are Great Admirals unchanged in GS? Most of them still suck, and Dido will be swimming in them

Free indestructible naval scouts.

 

[Ziad]

Are Great Admirals unchanged in GS? Most of them still suck, and Dido will be swimming in them

Dunno. Free yields, envoys, additional naval plundering for all those juicy naval trade routes, increased loyalty for a spread out empire when a capital isn't present, and reduced war weariness from all the wars that will be declared on you along with tons of free units and promotions for a naval empire sound good to me. Doubly so with the conveniently located Mausoleum.

If anyone can exploit the GA's bonuses properly it's Phoenicia

 

[IvoryPavane]

Are Great Admirals unchanged in GS? Most of them still suck, and Dido will be swimming in them

Given the trade route buff for ocean tiles, I’d be very surprised if we didn’t see a GA grant a trade route this time around.

I think some of the GP will change a little bit in GS

 

[Ziad]

Given the trade route buff for ocean tiles, I’d be very surprised if we didn’t see a GA grant a trade route this time around.

I think some of the GP will change a little bit in GS

I think the ones that grant yields need to be changed. They're OK but very uninspired.

Except the Great Engineers for wonders those are fine.

 

[Steamboat Willem]

Dunno. Free yields, envoys, additional naval plundering for all those juicy naval trade routes, increased loyalty for a spread out empire when a capital isn't present, and reduced war weariness from all the wars that will be declared on you along with tons of free units and promotions for a naval empire sound good to me. Doubly so with the conveniently located Mausoleum.

If anyone can exploit the GA's bonuses properly it's Phoenicia

And every Great Admiral can get you 3 Era Points. 1 when you recruit them and 2 when you kill a unit with them near. I don't think Phoenicia will have much of a problem with a Classical Golden Age, but that might come in handy later.

 

[Pietato]

Great Merchants are still better, and will let other trading civs cancel out Phoenicia's extra trade routes. I hope the admirals were changed a bit.

 

[IvoryPavane]

Great Merchants are still better, and will let other trading civs cancel out Phoenicia's extra trade routes. I hope the admirals were changed a bit.

I don’t quite agree. As Phonecia, I’ll be building both, and next to each other, so I’ll enjoy GA and GM, and the adjacency bonuses they give each other. And then roll that into Free Inquiry for a nice temporary science boost.

Again, another thing that all Civs can do, but works for Dido the best due to her perks (more cities, coastal bias, half price harbour). Vicky probably does something similar quite now, but she will have a few less cities (but more gold per harbour if she can settle off-continent!)

I do hope that some of the GA get a few more inspired activations though

 

[Siptah]

As Phonecia, I’ll be building both, and next to each other, so I’ll enjoy GA and GM

I do hope that some of the GA get a few more inspired activations though

GAs are really a mixed bag. Some are already very strong (free units from future eras). With Mausoleum, those are ridiculous. I guess this is a go to wonder with Phoenicia, that will get a lot of GAs. Good thing that the heal ability probably won‘t work without the needed resources.

 

[IvoryPavane]

GAs are really a mixed bag. Some are already very strong (free units from future eras). With Mausoleum, those are ridiculous. I guess this is a go to wonder with Phoenicia, that will get a lot of GAs. Good thing that the heal ability probably won‘t work without the needed resources.

Slightly off topic, but speaking of “go to Wonders”, I see there is now that doubles Diplo points for CS Suzerinship. This is an absolute must have for Tamar.

I think it’s *hilarious* that with that wonder she would the Queen of Diplomacy, but she always seems fed up of you talking to her and has a face like she’s sucking lemons

 

[Ziad]

Great Merchants are still better, and will let other trading civs cancel out Phoenicia's extra trade routes. I hope the admirals were changed a bit.

Harbors and Commercial Hubs aren't mutually exclusive. You'll probably want both.

 

[Siptah]

You don’t want CHs and Cothons in the same city as Phoenicia that much though, since that severely harms focusing on other yields than gold. You want/need Cothons in many cities though, so there isn‘t that much space for CHs, especially if you don‘t get any more trade routes.

As most civs you want a few cities that maximize gold (harbor+CH) and others that maximize science/culture/tourism/whatever (no harbor, no CH). Granted, Phoenicia has a tendency to grow large cities to make most use out of its abilities (4-7 pop cities might flip too fast when the capital moves away, which seems inevitable at some point). So you should get to 3 districts in many cities. But still - using up two spots for Cothon and CH? And never mind that findig good IZ/ED spots for Phoenicia is probably not an easy task and so you might need to build one or two more than usual.

 

[Ziad]

You don’t want CHs and Cothons in the same city as Phoenicia that much though, since that severely harms focusing on other yields than gold. You want/need Cothons in many cities though, so there isn‘t that much space for CHs, especially if you don‘t get any more trade routes.

As most civs you want a few cities that maximize gold (harbor+CH) and others that maximize science/culture/tourism/whatever (no harbor, no CH). Granted, Phoenicia has a tendency to grow large cities to make most use out of its abilities (4-7 pop cities might flip too fast when the capital moves away, which seems inevitable at some point). So you should get to 3 districts in many cities. But still - using up two spots for Cothon and CH? And never mind that findig good IZ/ED spots for Phoenicia is probably not an easy task and so you might need to build one or two more than usual.

Fair assessment, but I didn't imply that you would have a Commercial Hub in every city.

You also won't necessarily have a Cothon in every city too, particularly if you see a rich cluster of resources in-land, so the idea that you need to build a Harbor in every city isn't true either.

The Cothon is best used as a forward base for both civil and military expansion. It doesn't offer any direct yield bonuses for you to feel compelled to construct it in just about any city. Just gonna put that out there.

Ideally you'd dedicate your early expansion to coastal cities on multiple continents then later in the game move inward to secure your holdings using the loyalty immunity mechanic. You'll probably do it earlier too if there. So you can use those inner cities later for your IZ/ED districts.

It's why I keep saying that Phoenicia isn't wholly reliant on coast and can even excel on Pangaea. Start the game by settling your North Africa and Iberian coastlines, then take over the inland territories

 

[IvoryPavane]

Fair assessment, but I didn't imply that you would have a Commercial Hub in every city.

You also won't necessarily have a Cothon in every city too, particularly if you see a rich cluster of resources in-land, so the idea that you need to build a Harbor in every city isn't true either.

The Cothon is best used as a forward base for both civil and military expansion. It doesn't offer any direct yield bonuses for you to feel compelled to construct it in just about any city. Just gonna put that out there.

Ideally you'd dedicate your early expansion to coastal cities on multiple continents then later in the game move inward to secure your holdings using the loyalty immunity mechanic. You'll probably do it earlier too if there. So you can use those inner cities later for your IZ/ED districts.

It's why I keep saying that Phoenicia isn't wholly reliant on coast and can even excel on Pangaea. Start the game by settling your North Africa and Iberian coastlines, then take over the inland territories

Indeed, and the cities that want a CH and a Cothon will make themselves known quickly by having two resources in between a decent settling spot and the ability to build the CH adjacent.

I think considering Dido can all but guarantee a classical age GA, you could build a CH instead of a Campus and use Free Inquiry as a science boost. Then make Campus the third district?
I tried this on Vicky today to see how it went and for the most part I was able to get +5 harbours and +4 CHs because they were next to each other. When the first Golden Age hit, I went from 30 science to 80, it was pretty cool, but I had a fairly lucky start overall

I don’t build too many IZs unless I can make particular use of it (like Wilhelmina, she usually gets a couple), but always one that will hit maximum cities. Given how far she will spread, I think I’ll do a bit of expermentation!

The Cothon is best used as a forward base for both civil and military expansion. It doesn't offer any direct yield bonuses for you to feel compelled to construct it in just about any city. Just gonna put that out there.

I do mostly agree here, but the Cothon itself does give 1 (2?) sciences and (usually) 3+ gold, and it’s pretty cheap.

So I do think you need to think pretty carefully about where it goes, it will probably make a case for itself in a good number of your cities.

Dido on Pangaea will be interesting, can’t wait to give it a shot!

 

[Ziad]

I do mostly agree here, but the Cothon itself does give 1 (2?) sciences and (usually) 3+ gold, and it’s pretty cheap.

So I do think you need to think pretty carefully about where it goes, it will probably make a case for itself in a good number of your cities.

Dido on Pangaea will be interesting, can’t wait to give it a shot!

I mean you'll always want to start you new continental expansion on coast for that loyalty immunity and coastal cities will naturally want a Harbor. Once you have enough of your own pressure you can start settling inland.

Cothon does not grant science itself. A Citizen working it produces 1 science and 2 gold but that's not unique to the Cothon. However pretty much guaranteed Free Inquiries will make them hilarious for science anyway.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I mean you'll always want to start you new continental expansion on coast for that loyalty immunity and coastal cities will naturally want a Harbor. Once you have enough of your own pressure you can start settling inland.

Cothon does not grant science itself. A Citizen working it produces 1 science and 2 gold but that's not unique to the Cothon. However pretty much guaranteed Free Inquiries will make them hilarious for science anyway.

Ah sorry, I mean three gold if you construct it next to your city centre and at least one sea resource, perhaps more if you get lucky.

(But yes 2 gold and 1 science for popping a citizen in there too!)