[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[Zaarin]

I love how this image clearly shows the island of Cyprus to be on a plate that belongs to Asia, while being closest to a mainland African plate and culturally and politically European. Always liked that. I wonder if Cypriot cities are on Phoenicia's city list.

I was mildly surprised to spot Ugarit on their city list. (Well, okay. I was surprised in the sense that Ugarit was not Phoenician. I was not surprised in the sense that it's entirely in keeping with Civ's inconsistent city lists. I'd have rather seen Ugarit made a city-state and Agade added to Sumer's city list...)

 

[Siptah]

I was mildly surprised to spot Ugarit on their city list. (Well, okay. I was surprised in the sense that Ugarit was not Phoenician. I was not surprised in the sense that it's entirely in keeping with Civ's inconsistent city lists. I'd have rather seen Ugarit made a city-state and Agade added to Sumer's city list...)

Maybe it was put on the list to make the hurrian hymn more phoenician

 

[Ziad]

Oh, of course! Nutmeg and cloves!

Sure, those "intrinsic" luxuries would be a possibility.
But we "play the map" in Civ6 and having them as "real" ressources visually (and interactable!) on the map would be simply great (imo)!

As Zaarin mentioned, perhaps the industrious modders that create the YNAMP maps could position unique cedar and purple dye resources on the Levantine coast.

 

[Ziad]

I was mildly surprised to spot Ugarit on their city list. (Well, okay. I was surprised in the sense that Ugarit was not Phoenician. I was not surprised in the sense that it's entirely in keeping with Civ's inconsistent city lists. I'd have rather seen Ugarit made a city-state and Agade added to Sumer's city list...)

Yeah I was a bit surprised. I think they just went with "Canaanite". Did anyone spot Akko?

 

[Zaarin]

Maybe it was put on the list to make the hurrian hymn more phoenician

Ugarit's only slightly closer to Mitanni than Phoenicia.

 

[Deggial]

YnAMP can do this or something like it.

Another possibility, of course.

Unfortunately, I am a huge fan of procedurally generated (and therefore uncertain and endlessly re-playable) maps.
YnAMP is always the same. (Or at least I believe so ... I never used it.)

 

[Siptah]

Ugarit's only slightly closer to Mitanni than Phoenicia.

But the hymn was found in Ugarit iirc.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Another possibility, of course.

Unfortunately, I am a huge fan of procedurally generated (and therefore uncertain and endlessly re-playable) maps.
YnAMP is always the same. (Or at least I believe so ... I never used it.)

It contains several map scripts, not just Earth.

 

[pgm123]

Ugarit's only slightly closer to Mitanni than Phoenicia.

Linguistically closer to the Phoenicians, though.

 

[Ziad]

Another possibility, of course.

Unfortunately, I am a huge fan of procedurally generated (and therefore uncertain and endlessly re-playable) maps.
YnAMP is always the same. (Or at least I believe so ... I never used it.)

Well YnAMP is simply the "easiest" solution as then you would just have to edit one location on every map it has, which includes Europe, Earth, and more btw.

The alternative is to edit the civilization, which is a little more involved. A trade deal resource is the easier solution. A resource on the map is the most difficult. I'm not even sure Civ6 has a procedure for it.

Either way one has to create the luxury in the first place.

 

[Zaarin]

Another possibility, of course.

Unfortunately, I am a huge fan of procedurally generated (and therefore uncertain and endlessly re-playable) maps.
YnAMP is always the same. (Or at least I believe so ... I never used it.)

YnAMP's Earth maps are semi-procedural (landforms and major features are constant, but the terrain itself is randomized; natural wonders can also be randomized instead of fixed). It also has procedural Terra maps, but I never had good luck with those. I like playing on real Earth maps with TSL off--it can create some remarkably entertaining stories about how Russia conquered the entire New World from its capital in Brazil (true story from Civ5).

But the hymn was found in Ugarit iirc.

Seems you're correct. I learned something new.

Linguistically closer to the Phoenicians, though.

Of course. Ugaratic was at least Northwest Semitic, though not Canaanitic, whereas the Mitanni spoke an Indo-Aryan superstrate over a Hurrian substrate.

 

[Siptah]

Linguistically closer to the Phoenicians, though.

It should belong on the Hittites' city list in any case ;-)

 

[Ziad]

Just listened to a few reviews about Phoenicia. Very few of them are exploiting the Colonial cards and wonders. 25% production and 40% gold modifiers in core cities flying over their heads.

 

[IvoryPavane]

Just listened to a few reviews about Phoenicia. Very few of them are exploiting the Colonial cards and wonders. 25% production and 40% gold modifiers in core cities flying over their heads.

Those people tend be talking from winning on deity in maximum efficiency too, which probably discounts a lot of the Civs from the new expansion as they have more flavour than raw power (aside from the Maori who appear to have both from the outset).

The same “reviewers” praise Korea as being one of the better Civs when from a design and interest point of view she is my absolute bottom Civ because of how binary she is.

Beauty of Civ is Korea exists to give the Seowon smack down to Deity Civs, and Dido exists to create colonial utopias and swim in her vault of gold Scrooge McDuck style.

(And this is not to say Dido couldn’t do well on Deity, but it’s undeniable there are Civs who are more efficient for that game mode, and they tend do have domination leanings).

 

[Steamboat Willem]

Those people tend be talking from winning on deity in maximum efficiency too, which probably discounts a lot of the Civs from the new expansion as they have more flavour than raw power (aside from the Maori who appear to have both from the outset).

The same “reviewers” praise Korea as being one of the better Civs when from a design and interest point of view she is my absolute bottom Civ because of how binary she is.

Beauty of Civ is Korea exists to give the Seowon smack down to Deity Civs, and Dido exists to create colonial utopias and swim in her vault of gold Scrooge McDuck style.

(And this is not to say Dido couldn’t do well on Deity, but it’s undeniable there are Civs who are more efficient for that game mode, and they tend do have domination leanings).

Just like apparently there is a "Georgia tier" in the power ratings for Civ, there is a " Korea tier" for interesting gameplay. Basically it has one superstrong UD that is split over two different abilities.

 

[Ziad]

Those people tend be talking from winning on deity in maximum efficiency too, which probably discounts a lot of the Civs from the new expansion as they have more flavour than raw power (aside from the Maori who appear to have both from the outset).

The same “reviewers” praise Korea as being one of the better Civs when from a design and interest point of view she is my absolute bottom Civ because of how binary she is.

Beauty of Civ is Korea exists to give the Seowon smack down to Deity Civs, and Dido exists to create colonial utopias and swim in her vault of gold Scrooge McDuck style.

(And this is not to say Dido couldn’t do well on Deity, but it’s undeniable there are Civs who are more efficient for that game mode, and they tend do have domination leanings).

What do you mean by "efficiency", because I would think that guaranteed science from many Harbors via Free Inquiry in the early game coupled with a massive boost to production and gold in the mid/late game through strategic use of renaissance/industrial policy cards would be pretty damn effective on Deity.

Unless you mean a turtle strategy... sure I guess. Korea is pretty straight forward and reliable. That's the benefit of having relatively one-dimensional civilizations and why I don't think every civilization should have 20 effects like the one in GS. Some people just want to do one thing and one thing only

I'll admit I have only played Deity on Standard in Civ5 mostly with Vox Populi... (In Civ6 I mostly play Marathon games so my perception is skewed) but I don't see how Korea would be that far ahead in practice in the hands of presumably good players.

... unless the only reason they won Deity in the first place is that they skated through with ...

Ah I get it now.

 

[IvoryPavane]

What do you mean by "efficiency", because I would think that guaranteed science from many Harbors via Free Inquiry in the early game coupled with a massive boost to production and gold in the mid/late game through strategic use of renaissance/industrial policy cards would be pretty damn effective on Deity.

Unless you mean a turtle strategy... sure I guess. Korea is pretty straight forward and reliable. That's the benefit of having relatively one-dimensional civilizations and why I don't think every civilization should have 20 effects like the one in GS. Some people just want to do one thing and one thing only

I'll admit I have only played Deity on Standard in Civ5 mostly with Vox Populi... (In Civ6 I mostly play Marathon games so my perception is skewed) but I don't see how Korea would be that far ahead in practice in the hands of presumably good players.

... unless the only reason they won Deity in the first place is that they skated through with ...

Ah I get it now.

Yeah, so with Dido (as people have called out here a lot), she doesn’t have any specific win bonuses herself, and all the bonuses (free inquiry, colonial cards and wonders, trade routes) are ones the other Civs have access to.

Didos power comes from having the ability to settle maaaany more cities due to her increase settler production, settler movement and ignoring loyalty. So while other Civs can do it, she does that better. But it also requires a lot of skill and thought about when to expand, when to defend and when to build up. Her games will play differently every time.

Compared to Korea, who can build some cities, build some Seowons and then watch the science roll in, and use that technology boost to support her military while she turtles to Science win. There’s one clear way to play Korea and VERY strong boosts to a specific victory type. That’s why she’s a Deity darling and I find her to be as dry as toast.

As someone who usually only plays multiplayer with friends, I don’t really care about Deity analysis. Multiplayer is its own thing and I’ve been whipped by a great Georgia player and beaten my share of Korea and Persia’s!

But Dido really complements the way I like to play, so she is probably my favourite Civ in GS, and potentially in the whole shebang. There are a few tweaks I’d probably make but overall I love her execution, and her music, and general vibe.

 

[pgm123]

It should belong on the Hittites' city list in any case ;-)

Give me the Hittites and I'll quibble with this later.

 

[Gedemon]

Good point. @Gedemon

When using YnAMP, it's a few lines of code in XML or SQL to add a resource to the list (<CivilizationRequestedResource> table) to spawn near a specific Civilization starting position.

When the option to use that table is activated, the placement is random on available plots in the 3rd first rings (then up to the 6th ring if no available plots were found for the requested resource), but currently it's only available if the "TSL" option is also active for Civilization placement...

Another possibility, of course.

Unfortunately, I am a huge fan of procedurally generated (and therefore uncertain and endlessly re-playable) maps.
YnAMP is always the same. (Or at least I believe so ... I never used it.)

... option that's available on the "procedurally generated" Terra Map script.

I'll have to check if I can add that option for maps without a TSL option (ie all scripts compatible with YnAMP, which would include all vanilla mapscript, well, before the GS release patch broke all mods I mean)

 

[Ziad]

Didos power comes from having the ability to settle maaaany more cities due to her increase settler production, settler movement and ignoring loyalty. So while other Civs can do it, she does that better. But it also requires a lot of skill and thought about when to expand, when to defend and when to build up. Her games will play differently every time.

Compared to Korea, who can build some cities, build some Seowons and then watch the science roll in, and use that technology boost to support her military while she turtles to Science win. There’s one clear way to play Korea and VERY strong boosts to a specific victory type. That’s why she’s a Deity darling and I find her to be as dry as toast.

Very fair however...

Yeah, so with Dido (as people have called out here a lot), she doesn’t have any specific win bonuses herself, and all the bonuses (free inquiry, colonial cards and wonders, trade routes) are ones the other Civs have access to.

Not particularly true.

No other civilization has the power to use the colonial cards and wonders in the same style as Dido. Those cards are balanced around the fact that colonial settlements are weaker in yields due to their latent settlement period on a different continent that are frequently unsafe for settling until much later in the game.

Phoenicia is the only civilization that can use those cards (and one particular wonder) to power her core cities and I'm almost 100% certain the developers took this into consideration when designing Dido. They even brought it up in the stream.

With regards to Free Inquiry, few other civilizations can achieve similar results in the classical age. It requires Harbors and Commercial Hubs. The former is not appealing for most civilizations, and the latter is not something a standard civilization would have enough of in the classical age to actually make much out of to the same degree. Furthermore, not all civilizations can easily receive golden ages in the classical era in the first place, while Phoenicia is essentially guaranteed as all its uniques are in the ancient/early classical era.

Also, many civilizations in turn opt for Monumentalism to achieve some measure of efficient settling. Phoenicia doesn't need it.

It's why I say that Phoenicia's power isn't immediately obvious. It requires some level of understanding of the game's mechanics and general flow. I'm certain it will become more evident in practice.