[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[Seek]

Now you have the perfect base of operations and it won’t loyalty flip. Nor will any coastal cities you capture.

The loyalty bonus only applies to self-founded cities.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

That's just the specialist slots in the harbor, they are the same as they are currently in the game, no change there.

I just realized that but stil some science bonus after all.

 

[Disgustipated]

Sarah says in the video Biremes have a much stronger combat bonus, and she emphasized much. Do we know how much is much? I didn't catch the combat strength in the video.

 

[Laxley]

I had assumed that domination would count the *original* capital too, but Sarah says "move her original capital" and in the footage Carthage gains the Original Capital star symbol and not the New Capital star.

 

[Kaan Boztepe]

settlers are dirt cheap , extra trade routes also ok.
how long does the project to move take? to make sense it doesnt need to take long and also do the capital building bonuses move with you?

 

[Jewelrunna]

Now that my mourning of the Carthagian Elephants is done, some thoughts on Phoenicia:

Mediterranean Colonies: This full loyalty thing is pretty decent actually, it opens up Phoenicia’s settling options a good bit. You can forward settle the heck out of your neighbors without much consequence. The Writing boost, however, is pretty trivial in my opinion; that’s a really easy eureka to get, so it doesn’t amount to much.

Founder of Carthage: This is something I wish every Civ had, but as a unique, it’s a little underwhelming. Outside of alleviating some loyalty pressure on another continent if you slip into a dark age, it seems mostly gimmicky. The bonus production and trade routes, however, seems really, really good. It’s only for one city, since it’s tied to the Gov. Plaza, but the bonus is so good that I don’t particularly mind.

Bireme: Not a war elephant, so it’s the worst unit in the game.
Ok, but in all honesty I don’t think this unit will be all that significant. Classical era naval dominance really doesn’t matter, as we all know with Norway, so even if it’s significantly stronger, I don’t know if I particularly care. The naval trade route protection however might be more useful than Mali’s land counterpart, since naval barbs are a bit more unpredictable. Still fairly gimmicky.

Cothon: I love that we have two uniques of the same district, it opens things way up for a possible third expansion. The district itself is a bit bland, but potentially powerful. Churning out naval units like no one’s business could be great, and that is a very heavy bonus to apply to settler production. However, harbors are not high on my production queue, and it seems like shipbuilding might be necessary to get the most out of Phoenicia’s settlers, so realistically, this might not be all that strong. It could, however, be amazing.

Overall, I’m a bit underwhelmed by Phoenicia. They’re not as wacky or unique a Civ as I expected, and most of the things that make them unique seem like largely gimmicks. Still, there is a lot of upside for some of their strengths in game, and they could be really good for domination and science with that production bonus.

Current power rankings: Maori > Hungary > Inca > Sweden > Ottomans > Phoenicia > Canada > Mali

 

[Seek]

Sarah says in the video Biremes have a much stronger combat bonus, and she emphasized much. Do we know how much is much? I didn't catch the combat strength in the video.

30 vs 25 for the galley

 

[bite]

Well I called the loyalty change, but wow, that is a big shift

 

[UWHabs]

To me, the logical ability spam for them:
-Grab an early government plaza in your original cap, plus building the Ancestral Hall
-Tech out to harbors, and build a Cothon there for virtually free (+50% bonus to building plus half price unique)
-Use governor slots to get Magnus to tier 2 for no penalty to settlers
-Use policy slot to build settlers at +150% bonus
-Settle along the coastlines, and move your capital to contain loyalty pressure

The real questions here are whether you can get this done fast enough to make a difference.

 

[Leathaface]

Actually @Hakan-i Cihan screenshots the Cothon gives you 1 Science and 2 gold per citizen, that is pretty powerful.

Having said that, Phoenicia is probably the strongest of the new Civs. And it's not even close.

I feel Hungary is stronger, they get 50% production towards districts and it's buildings in most (if not all) of their cities.

-the 100% loyalty for coastal cities is beautiful.’it means you know where you’ll want to concentrate your power base, just like the Phoenicians/Carthage.

-I like the government plaza trade boost and extra district production. Cheaper productions in your best cities, while slightly underwhelming, is still a wonderful turn saver.

-faster embarked settlers is nice and will help you claim areas farther away that you might like your opponents not to have.

-the cothon is good! The cheaper settlers is my favorite part, and since ships are more difficult to build in a lot of coastal cities due to less production, the discount there will be nice.

You can only build the Government Plaza in one city, so you should only get the 50% bonus production towards districts in 1 city only? Unless being able to move your capital somehow changes this.

However there is some dissonance here. A lot of their benefits rely on the Government district, which can only be built once. It also has a hard cap of 4 trade routes in total, which in itself is pretty underwhelming. They should be swimming in trade routes, not just through city spam. If the Cothon provided +1 trade route no matter what then it would be a different story, but it doesn't.

Maybe we'll hear more on the livestream. Maybe they have a secret ability to build a Government Plaza 3 times. This might make it a lot better, but probably not.

Can you not build a lighthouse in a Cothon?

 

[Ziad]

The real questions here are whether you can get this done fast enough to make a difference.

Doesn't matter. Build a massive navy to go along with it and the coast will be yours.

 

[pgm123]

That particular issue has been corrected for some time. It was either the March or Spring Updates last year.

I was not aware. I had been avoiding mods that had UDs. Time to start downloading again.

Ok, well, I mean you'll have to play differently than otherwise. Looking at I see no reason you'd want to build a CH before harbor, for example. It's probably the first district to get settler production up and moving

Exactly. A civ isn't interesting if it already fits the way you've been playing. If you roll Phoenicia, it should change how you play. The Harbor is a good district, minus Great Admirals being kind of poor. But if navies are generally better, maybe GAs are decent.

Have they changed the Eureka for Writing or not? Because if not that's just the one for meeting another civ which you get pretty much every game without really trying so that's a pretty useless bonus if so

It depends on your map. If you're on an island or archipelago map, you have to rush to shipbuilding to meet other civs. That can be a pain. I might go sailing->pottery->writing with Phoenicia to get the campus down quickly.

 

[VermelhoRed]

Very interesting set of abilities...

One thing I can't help but think would be better would be if they split the water tiles in "seas" like they did with land and continents, then their ability could have been 100% loyalty for all cities with districts bordering the same "sea" as the capital. Would fit better, historically.

 

[Ziad]

Can you not build a lighthouse in a Cothon?

It's mutually exclusive with the Market though.

 

[Metecury]

They definitively updated the look of all units. Can't wait to see what they came up with for the different culture groups.


I like this civ, the writing boost is obviously just for flavor but the rest is good. You can settle anywhere on your main continent and then colonize easily new continents by switching capitals. The city with the government plaza will be quite the power house.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I think that maybe the game should only allow you to move your capital once or twice per game. Being able to constantly move your capital over and over again all the time to gain an advantage seems very gamey to me.

 

[Kibikus]

Unless they've changed the loyalty mechanisms, all her abilities tied to that are underwhelming. I've never found loyalty to really be an issue in my games.

Faster expansion is great, but city spots get snatched very quickly in this game, especially on Deity. And it's not like Phoenicia can go out and settle a one tile island in the middle of the ocean, and have it be useful, like Indonesia for example. I don't think Biremes will be strong enough to conquer other civs' coastal cities early on.

Still, it'll probably be a good civ to roleplay on an island plates or archipelago map.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Decent if not as interesting as some of the other new civs
Not the worst but not the best
I don't suppose this would've been doable but if would've nice if their loyalty bonus had been for all cities on the coast of a particular body of water rather than just one continent

 

[Leucarum]

I wonder if they decided to make a loyalty flipping civ as the Mapuche hadn't quite worked as they intended? I like the loyalty mechanic so it would be nice to see it taken advantage of. How much of a boost does your capital actually give to loyalty? Trying to work out how viable a play style it would be...

Played that way these guys might want to spread their envoys around a lot of city states to get big boosts to yields in whichever capital they choose rather than becoming suzerains of a few... Keep an eye on who is in a dark age and thus best to forward settle... Amani and Dido are new BFFs...

 

[Ziad]

I'm going to reserve final judgement for the final look. I feel there's something missing.