[GS] Phoenicia Uniques Predictions

What will Phoenicia's uniques include?

  • Gold and Production from trade routes, districts, or luxury resources

    Votes: 37 25.0%
  • Science from trade routes, districts, or luxury resources

    Votes: 51 34.5%
  • Diplomatic favor from trade routes, districts, or luxury resources

    Votes: 29 19.6%
  • Heavy coastal bias with unique propensity to settle on coast. Maybe even mandatory.

    Votes: 88 59.5%
  • Cothon will be a unique city center that essentially replaces Harbor

    Votes: 22 14.9%
  • Cothon will be a Harbor or Canal replacement

    Votes: 100 67.6%
  • Unique Elephant with offensive bonuses

    Votes: 25 16.9%
  • Unique Trireme with possible coastal settling or exploration bonuses

    Votes: 75 50.7%
  • Reduction to gold and/or faith costs of purchasing units

    Votes: 13 8.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 16 10.8%

  • Total voters
    148
There are so many great ideas in this thread that I fear I will only end up disappointed by what gets revealed on Tuesday!

I voted for the Cothon as a unique city centre, though that's more what I want than what I expect: I think it's likely to be a canal or harbour replacement. But a unique city centre that also acts as a harbour would be very cool. It would also require that they only be allowed to settle on coast, so I voted for that too. Unique Trireme not quite a given, but very likely, as is something (science or favour, I would guess) from trade routes.

Tyrian purple as a unique luxury wasn't in the poll but I really hope at least some reference is made to it.
Yeah I mentioned it later but I had forgotten to explicitly mention Tyrian puple in the polls (the first three options mention luxuries but not unique ones).

One idea I had was one similar to what Avian British above said, in that founded cities on coast generate a random unique luxury in the city (Like Indonesia in civ5 if you recall).
 
I think it will have something to do with subverting the loyalty system
 
Perhaps Phoenicia starts with a portion of the map (such as nearby coastlines) already explored?

That's a clever idea. They'd likely need to start with Sailing and the ability for their Settler to embark, too, in order to benefit from it.

Alternatively, Scouts can embark from the start?
 
That's a clever idea. They'd likely need to start with Sailing and the ability for their Settler to embark, too, in order to benefit from it.

Alternatively, Scouts can embark from the start?

I could see an early 'Colonization Bonus' for Phoenicia by, say, allowing a 'Free' Settler to be generated when a Cothon is built, Cothon to be available at Tech: Sailing, and Scouts to be able to Embark from the start.

But to return to an earlier thought, given that they've already shown a different Start Mechanism with the Maoris, I'm really hoping for some kind of City State Civ mechanism for Phoenicia.

Maybe (pure speculation here) every city founded after the capital acts like a City State that Phoenicia is the Permanent Suzereign of, and you can without cost 'activate' their militaries ONLY if you are attacked - or activate all their militaries if anybody attacks any of them. Add in a Choice of 'Specialty' for each 'City State' as it is founded: religion, military, economic (Bonus Resource: Tyrian Purple!), diplomatic, scientific. . .
This would make Phoenician cities flexible enough to 'respond' to in-game situations as you settle them to some extent, and the Civ as strong as anyone defensively, but also make it very difficult for Phoenicia to fight aggressive wars - which is pretty accurate based on their history, and should lead them to concentrate on the trade and gold and, potentially, science and colonization that they were good at historically.
 
That idea is beautiful.

If Byblos is made the capital it would be even more historically appropriate.

Of course these would have to be super powered city states.
 
@Boris Gudenuf The city-state idea could be really cool, but Phoenicia would also have to have a super-powered capital to make up for the opportunity cost of lack of districts and wonders. Unless these city-states are at least to some degree under Phoenicia's control regarding building and contribute GPP etc. to Phoenicia proper.

If Byblos is made the capital it would be even more historically appropriate.
But very strange for Dido. :p I might argue that it's even more appropriate for Tyre, which did a lot more colonizing than Byblos did, though I can see where you're coming from with Byblos and the diplomatic angle.
 
But very strange for Dido. :p I might argue that it's even more appropriate for Tyre, which did a lot more colonizing than Byblos did, though I can see where you're coming from with Byblos and the diplomatic angle.

Byblos is the Phoenician progenitor. Its denizens are the ones that populated Sidon and founded Tyre. The rest is history.

Of course I do expect it to be Tyre.
 
I could be wrong, of course. It could just be a harbor replacement. I just hope whatever they do, the graphic matches that of an inland harbor.

I hope it's a harbor replacement because it means they fixed the bug that you can only have one unique replacement of a district in a given game.
 
@Boris Gudenuf The city-state idea could be really cool, but Phoenicia would also have to have a super-powered capital to make up for the opportunity cost of lack of districts and wonders. Unless these city-states are at least to some degree under Phoenicia's control regarding building and contribute GPP etc. to Phoenicia proper.

I just don't see this happening with Phoenicia. For one, although the civs in GS are gimmicky, they all adhere roughly to a consistent gimmick pattern. Terrain bonus. One or two additional unique units/buildings. And usually a downside. A city state civ would break from the consistency. And the idea is of a substantially higher complexity level that I think they would save it for expack 3.

For two, a city state civ within VI would emphasize the individual specialties of each city state, given the way districts complement CS types. And although Phoenicia had religion, and a military, and science, it wasn't very cleanly divided into specialty superpowers and was indisputably a trade civ first and foremost. It could receive unique luxuries as proposed earlier, but on face value that would be underutilizing the idea of a city state civ.

And I don't think the city state idea fits Phoenicia, at least when you step back from the idea and look at how Italy is begging to take that role. While you could stretch Phoenicia to fit the idea and people can squint and accept it, it isn't as resonant as Italy with a scientific Bologna, cultural Florence, commercial Venice, industrial Genoa/Milan, religious Rome, and militaristic Naples. Perhaps multiple cities of each kind to fill out a city list.
 
Byblos is the Phoenician progenitor. Its denizens are the ones that populated Sidon and founded Tyre. The rest is history.
Are you certain of that? I'm aware that the Byblian dialect was more conservative than Sido-Tyrian (which in turn was more conservative than Western dialects like that of Cyprus), but Byblos, Tyre, and Sidon have all been settled since prehistory. If anything, by the historic period Byblos is something of an outlier in Phoenician culture, having closer ties to Egypt rather than Mesopotamia, speaking a comparatively archaic dialect, and focused more inward than Tyre or Sidon were. My impression of the archaeology has been that Canaanite culture, including Phoenicia, developed in situ. The Wikipedia pages for all three cities also mention nothing about Byblian origins for Sidon or Tyre.

And I don't think the city state idea fits Phoenicia, at least when you step back from the idea and look at how Italy is begging to take that role.
Italy is very low on my personal wishlist, but I do agree with your assessment.
 
Italy is very low on my personal wishlist, but I do agree with your assessment.

I don't have any particular loyalty to it, especially given how difficult it would be to implement. But I do see signs that the devs are considering it, like the increasing possibility that Byzantium will be blobbed with Rome, and the fact that Italy is repped by specifically a science CS this time. I would be fine with either Italy or Byzantium I guess, but not both. And the standard I would hold either of them to would be very high because both have difficulty differentiating themselves from neighbors and to my mind neither is very necessary to VI.

But yeah CS Phoenicia is just...weird, given that for the idea to stick, the individual City states would need reputations on par or exceeding the civ as a whole. And there aren't many civs who fit this, and so far all but Italy are in the game: Greece, obviously, but also to some extent Spain, Germany, Britain, and France. The U.S. And still none of them resonate as much as Italy. Maybe the Balkans, but that is already vicariously represented by Hungary. So I think the CS concept is limited to Italy or bust.
 
Are you certain of that? .

As certain as the sources I've read, so as certain as one can be when it comes to these things :p

I'm sure there's still a great deal of disagreement, but as far as I know Sidon was a minor village (perhaps even the first) til it sprung up from Byblian settlers and then they founded Tyre in order to better fortify their position on the Lebanese coast.

Perhaps Tyre did exist beforehand
 
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So many interesting ideas in this thread! Which means we'll all be a little disappointed with the actual design. :p

Frankly my qualm with Cothon being a Harbor replacement is that it simply comes too late...
I expect it will be a harbor replacement but available at sailing.

What we didn't consider yet:
A unique harbor that can be placed either normally OR inland like a canal.
I like the idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if Phoenicia can only settle on the coast. It would get awesome trade routes and who knows what else as compensation.

I'm quite curious about whether it gets a UU at all - while a ship of some sort is the obvious choice, hiring other civs' UUs as mercenaries is also an intriguing idea. We know they didn't do a super careful job with the numbers in the marketing material, but they deserve some ribbing if they really did miscount UUs as well.
 
I just don't see this happening with Phoenicia. For one, although the civs in GS are gimmicky, they all adhere roughly to a consistent gimmick pattern. Terrain bonus. One or two additional unique units/buildings. And usually a downside. A city state civ would break from the consistency. And the idea is of a substantially higher complexity level that I think they would save it for expack 3.

Yes and no. While there has been a Pattern for all the Civs in Civ VI, GS breaks this pattern completely with the Maori, by giving them a Mobile Sea start: a very different mechanism from any Civ in any Civ game that I know of. Now, this may be a 'one off' experiment, but I doubt it, and I think it indicates that the Pattern is apt to be broken or bent by future Civ inclusions in the game.

For two, a city state civ within VI would emphasize the individual specialties of each city state, given the way districts complement CS types. And although Phoenicia had religion, and a military, and science, it wasn't very cleanly divided into specialty superpowers and was indisputably a trade civ first and foremost. It could receive unique luxuries as proposed earlier, but on face value that would be underutilizing the idea of a city state civ.

There have been several attempts in Civ V and Civ VI by Dodders to implement a variable City specialization or 'City State' Civ. In Civ V there was an Olmec civ that was pretty much as I described, each city other than the original capital built its own units and went its own way, but didn't coast any maintenance for anything to the iv, until you decided to 'incorporate' them, at which point they became 'regular' cities. Not completely adaptable to Civ VI as is. Another attempt was a Tribal Civ: the Civ VI version of the Iroquois in which as each city (including the capital) is settled, you pick a Specialization for it: military, cultural, trade, religion, etc. This is another step in the right direction, but doesn't really represent the independent streak inherent in any Civ composed of autonomous cities/city states.

The point is, there are attempts and models that can be used, and of course a current City State model in Civ VI that can be modified to represent a Civ.

And I don't think the city state idea fits Phoenicia, at least when you step back from the idea and look at how Italy is begging to take that role. While you could stretch Phoenicia to fit the idea and people can squint and accept it, it isn't as resonant as Italy with a scientific Bologna, cultural Florence, commercial Venice, industrial Genoa/Milan, religious Rome, and militaristic Naples. Perhaps multiple cities of each kind to fill out a city list.

While the Italian Renaissance City States may be better known to the Eurocentric Western histories and historians, it merely points out the similarities between what I consider the three great 'City State' Civs: Italy, Greece and Phoenicia. All three were cultural entities: language, religion, culture, were similar enough that the individuals in all their cities and polities thought of themselves as Italian, Greek, and Phoenician on some level, even if on a practical level day-to-day they were Venetians, Athenians, Sidonians (Sidonites?)., etc. On the other hand, despite cultural identity, none of them had any political unity until they were conquered by Someone Else: in the case of Italy, mostly Austria/HRE, Greece by Macedonia and later Rome, Phoenicia by Persia and then the Diadochii.

Which points out the problem with a 'City State Civ'. Unless the design provides a rather unhistorical military unity among the various cities comprising it, the Civ will be snapped up by the first Unified Civ that comes along. On the other hand, looking at the tremendous commercial, scientific and cultural diversity and influence all three of the City State Civs had, I think a case can be made for some kind of Built In Bonus to a city state Civ in those areas. They may have a great deal of trouble being a military aggressor, because no one City has the power base for it, but they should be able to defend themselves ferociously (see Alexander's Siege of Tyre, one of the great Epics of Siege Warfare) and should have enormous influence culturally and scientifically.
 
Military weakness can be overcome with exceptional defensive ability. The Cothon can maybe add some defense to the city center. Maybe bonus defense per adjacent coastal tile (which tbh has historical basis as Tyre and Sidon were only really conquered when an invader conquered other city states and used their navies against their sister cities).

They could also utilize the levy system, which in practice is essentially similar enough to represent mercenaries. Perhaps Phoenicia can levy allied city state units for free if and only if war is declared on them.

Even funnier, maybe she can trade diplomatic favor to levy some other civilization units. (New units would spawn and then despawn on timeout).

Maybe Dido can force a self-defense emergency to force other civs to help her against an aggressor.

Another possibility is that units cost more gold to purchase and/or have higher upkeep (representing that they are mercenaries).
 
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Is it possible if Carthage/Phoenicia becomes CIV6's Venice?
With Carthage as its only city, ability to levy/buy other civs' units, and cothon as a unique district that works like buffed harbor-comm-mil hybrid?
 
So many interesting ideas in this thread! Which means we'll all be a little disappointed with the actual design. :p


I expect it will be a harbor replacement but available at sailing.


I like the idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if Phoenicia can only settle on the coast. It would get awesome trade routes and who knows what else as compensation.

I'm quite curious about whether it gets a UU at all - while a ship of some sort is the obvious choice, hiring other civs' UUs as mercenaries is also an intriguing idea. We know they didn't do a super careful job with the numbers in the marketing material, but they deserve some ribbing if they really did miscount UUs as well.

The count *may* not have included the Janissary, which has already appeared in civ 6 in a scenario. And given that and their mis-counting of the UI, you still have to imagine that they will still get a UU. However, allowing the purchase of other civ's UU would definitely make for a really cool ability if they don't get their own unique.
 
The count *may* not have included the Janissary, which has already appeared in civ 6 in a scenario. And given that and their mis-counting of the UI, you still have to imagine that they will still get a UU. However, allowing the purchase of other civ's UU would definitely make for a really cool ability if they don't get their own unique.

Am not familiar with the militaries of the 'original' Phoenician cities in the Levant, other than that they provided most of the Persian Empire's navy, but Carthage, by the time of the Punic Wars with Rome had an army that was almost entirely Mercenary Spanish and Gaulic infantry, Numidian light cavalry and infantry and Balaeric slingers (who used lead pellet 'shot' and so had ranges and effects aqs good or better than self bows)

So giving Phoenicia the ability to 'hire' or obtain City State, Civ or even Barbarian units would make sense historically, and as you say would be a very Unique Ability indeed.
 
Sidonians (Sidonites?)
Sidonian is correct. ;) I know, everyone else in the region is -ite except the Phoenicians and their constituent Sidonian, Tyrian, and Byblian peoples. :p

Is it possible if Carthage/Phoenicia becomes CIV6's Venice?
Not likely on Civ6's model. Such a civ would just fall too far behind in the district and GPP department.

Am not familiar with the militaries of the 'original' Phoenician cities in the Levant, other than that they provided most of the Persian Empire's navy, but Carthage, by the time of the Punic Wars with Rome had an army that was almost entirely Mercenary Spanish and Gaulic infantry, Numidian light cavalry and infantry and Balaeric slingers (who used lead pellet 'shot' and so had ranges and effects aqs good or better than self bows)

So giving Phoenicia the ability to 'hire' or obtain City State, Civ or even Barbarian units would make sense historically, and as you say would be a very Unique Ability indeed.
The Phoenicians also hired mercenaries from Cyprus, Crete, and Philistia.
 
Yes and no. While there has been a Pattern for all the Civs in Civ VI, GS breaks this pattern completely with the Maori, by giving them a Mobile Sea start: a very different mechanism from any Civ in any Civ game that I know of. Now, this may be a 'one off' experiment, but I doubt it, and I think it indicates that the Pattern is apt to be broken or bent by future Civ inclusions in the game.

And yet the rest of the Maori is very consistent with the other GS civs. The marae replaces a building that it doesn't share much in common with, much like the bazaar and thermal baths, acting more as a replacement rather than a strict upgrade. They have two UIs, alongside Inca and Sweden, while Ottomans and Hungary get two UUs. And they have a chopping debuff much like Mali's production nerf, Canada's inability to wage emergency wars, and Sweden's granting of Nobel competitions as a handicap to other civs. The ocean start is new and perhaps the most novel thing in the expack, but it only affects the first few turns and above all else is not complicated. City State civs are on a whole new level and I guarantee that the other civs in expack 3 will be equally complicated.

There have been several attempts in Civ V and Civ VI by Dodders to implement a variable City specialization or 'City State' Civ. In Civ V there was an Olmec civ that was pretty much as I described, each city other than the original capital built its own units and went its own way, but didn't coast any maintenance for anything to the iv, until you decided to 'incorporate' them, at which point they became 'regular' cities. Not completely adaptable to Civ VI as is. Another attempt was a Tribal Civ: the Civ VI version of the Iroquois in which as each city (including the capital) is settled, you pick a Specialization for it: military, cultural, trade, religion, etc. This is another step in the right direction, but doesn't really represent the independent streak inherent in any Civ composed of autonomous cities/city states.

I am aware of this. But this has no bearing on what the devs have developed or what they planned for GS. They may look to V for ideas, and obviously a CS civ is likely given their go at Venice in V. But the successes and failures of modders on the current game do not influence official content.

While the Italian Renaissance City States may be better known to the Eurocentric Western histories and historians, it merely points out the similarities between what I consider the three great 'City State' Civs: Italy, Greece and Phoenicia. All three were cultural entities: language, religion, culture, were similar enough that the individuals in all their cities and polities thought of themselves as Italian, Greek, and Phoenician on some level, even if on a practical level day-to-day they were Venetians, Athenians, Sidonians (Sidonites?)., etc. On the other hand, despite cultural identity, none of them had any political unity until they were conquered by Someone Else: in the case of Italy, mostly Austria/HRE, Greece by Macedonia and later Rome, Phoenicia by Persia and then the Diadochii.

Which points out the problem with a 'City State Civ'. Unless the design provides a rather unhistorical military unity among the various cities comprising it, the Civ will be snapped up by the first Unified Civ that comes along. On the other hand, looking at the tremendous commercial, scientific and cultural diversity and influence all three of the City State Civs had, I think a case can be made for some kind of Built In Bonus to a city state Civ in those areas. They may have a great deal of trouble being a military aggressor, because no one City has the power base for it, but they should be able to defend themselves ferociously (see Alexander's Siege of Tyre, one of the great Epics of Siege Warfare) and should have enormous influence culturally and scientifically.

Although the Greeks and Phoenicians were city-states, neither had city states which were major regional nfluencers. They mostly kept to themselves, barring the occasional league formation, which is why Athens and Sparta make great subdivisions of the Greek civ. By contrast, both Venice and Genoa each had their own pseudo-Phoenician colonial empire across the Mediterranean. Sardinia and Naples were a thing for a while. The Papal States were a political powerhouse. And Florence did some things too. The reason why Italy is by and far much more a CS civ is because each of several CSs were do important preunifucation that they each could become their own civ. This is absolutely not true of Phoenicia, if only as a consequence of not surviving until a broader European awareness emerged.
 
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