Pikeman upgrade to Lancers?

Yes, but someone was saying they upgrade to pikes. I am not quite there yet in my game. I just got to musketmen. I'll let you guys know soon. The thing is you'll never use as many lancers as you have pikemen anyway, so it makes no sense to have pikes up to lancers.

They do upgrade to pikemen. Fine, I'll upgrade my best units to lancers. I have plenty of horses, so if they are required, no big deal.

 

I noticed this myself. I thought Germany was getting a buff but honestly it seems their even weaker now.

 

Great change, I really dont see a downside. I always have had way too many horse resources available too, so it addresses that issue too. Makes sense too, since its all part of the anti-mounted line, really almost wonder why it wasnt like this to begin with...

 

The reason its a downside is lancers are useless crap.

 

Knights are at 20 strength and Lancers are strong vs them anyways. The "only" threat is fortified musketmen.

They have their uses except I never usually use pikemen in the first place. My favorite unit to spam are the crossbowmen in medieval times. What sucks is they don't get an upgrade until the industrial era so I don't want to hear how your main unit is "crap".

 

Why on earth am I going to be satisfied with crap mounted units when
musketmen and riflemen aren't too far off and pikeman should upgrade
(and used to) to them anyway?

 

Well you could learn how to use mounted units. The mounted bonus isn't 100% anymore so enemy pikemen won't eat up your lancers if you do. Their stength vs mounted is 21.28 which is still lower than 25. Besides, you should have a healthy unit mixture as it is.

 

Or I could simply replace them with a line unit thats actually useful rather than use
a crap unit that no one used and for good reason. As it is its not even worth the cost
of upgrading them.

 

No one used*

Past tense. Now that their defensive penalty has been removed they will be used more often and since rifles come much later now I am almost 100% sure I will see them more in multiplayer from now on. Their speed is always useful for hit and run attacks

 

I'm sure they get upgraded into something more useful later on into the game.

 

Historically after Agincourt all horse units were "crap" except for "mounted rifle" type units and they were no match for line infrantry. That said when Europe upgraded thier pikes they upgraded to Gunpowder ground units the Spanish Tericios had arquebusiers as a major component.
But as I am trying out the Celts I look forward to these buffed Gunships I am going to have.

 

Maybe u should try to learn how to use cavalry units with high . I would suggest u to try playing as Ottomans & Mongols. That will explain to u how important it is to have units that move really fast & Otto Sipahi is a lancer UU, maybe u would actually build & try using them instead of theorizing that they are useless.

 

In Vanilla,I liked to use Lancers for garrison,as they are the cheapest military unit in Renaissance era,replacing scouts with efficiency and also,their ability to move after attack is wonderful for Helicopters . I've never used them in combats,because AI doesn't use Cavalry units efficiently . It'd be worthy to try to use them when I get G&K at Friday .

 

I have to agree with the OP. Lancers are not a proper upgrade for your main infantry force. Spearmen/Pikemen are the main infantry force, Swordsmen/Longswordsmen are the specialists that you might not even have. What about the Spanish UU? It's basically a mixed group of musketeers and pikemen, why should Spanish Pikemen upgrade to Lancers instead of them?

The upgrade line should go Horsemen -> Knight -> Lancer -> Cavalry -> Tank -> Modern Armor.

I think that Firaxis just didn't like that people only built Spears/Pikes, probably why they made catapults/trebuchets not require any special resources. Forcing us to use mounted units which not many people like is not cool though.

 

Just played a game (Emperor) with no iron and did just fine. My unexpected army of Lancers proved surprisingly effective - so mobile!

Or I guess I could have just ragequit the entire game.

 

But Lancers totally dominate Knights now?

 

yeah, I really wish people knew what they were talking about before coming here and complaining. It'd at least make the arguments more useful.

This is what you don't do. It's best to use something first, then learn how to use it properly, then decide if you don't like it.

and then some.

Lancer stats:

25 CS
-33% vs. cities.
no defensive bonuses (so can't fortify)
Formation I (+33% vs. mounted)

note: that's an actual promotion (Formation I) and Formation II is available still.
which means ~33 combat strength vs. Cavalry at 34 combat strength as a base (or Knights at 20 combat strength).

All mounted units are beasts once you get to March. Toss in charge and Medic I + Medic II and you can rip through most any line infantry without stopping to heal.

Even Cavalry are worthy now due to removing the -50% vs. mounted.

 

No kidding. I read these threads because I'm curious about civs I have yet to play, but wind up slogging through why this unit is UP and that civ is OP, and the discussion quickly shifts to the proper fix in the next patch.

I've been looking forward to your opinion (and that of the other testers) precisely because you did spend a good amount of time with G&K.

 

Hmm curious.... Not sure what to feel about this.

Currently have a game in progress. Though the war against siam is over and I have his capital because he's such a dbag.

But again, considering how my game went.. I think I might be fine with this but I am missing the 100% bonus against mounted units ;(

And due to lots of dead landsknechts n' pachyderms and longswordmen upgrading into musketmen.

Unless you tech really quick, a late medieval force will be mainly Musketery and Lancers though it is possible to be fielding landsknechts, longswordmens and cannons. that actually happened to me, i never fielded cannons with medieval force before.

I don't know, the change from pikeman into lancers is really unusual one, I don't think this kind of change has occurred before in the civ series.

But I welcome this, it does add in an new option that wasn't available before, I'm generally busy building quick to build stuff and Lancers isn't quite so quick to build. That way, you'll be able to field some quite spiffy knights by simply upgrading some of your old pikemen. Other bonus factor is that lancers have huge movement, u could have them covering whole fronts easily. That was hugely valuable even when their hp was 10 or 20. Even more so now with hp values at 100. Lancers can harass and annoy while your slow infantry catch up and set up a battleline.

Pikemens upgrading into lancers can allow opportunistic battles to occur. Because battlelines as I learned, is relatively static unless you're on fire and trying to keep your units alive. And with 4 movement, those lancers can hit units and move back behind the battleline or anger enemy units on the flanks.

Something which horsemen can't do because ancient and classical era is simply too short to allow such development to occur.

With all this typed out, it seems like I am content with sudden change.

 

This is a plus in my eyes. Lancers were never an option to take before because they were so bad. Hopfully with a buff they are now a viable option. I much prefer mounted units to foot solders just for the extra movment