Pirates

[Ahriman]

LIKE I SAID, you didn't read what I said

What you said was: barbarians should be abundant and annoying, as this would represent modern pirates and terrorists.

Abundant and annoying barbarians would not represent modern pirates or terrorists, which are not abundant, and have no significant military impact on the Great Powers.

 

[playshogi]

It would be interesting if barbarian navies originated from a city-state, rather than popping up randomly.

 

[MrWashington]

It would be interesting if barbarian navies originated from a city-state, rather than popping up randomly.

I like that idea. It would be more like the vikings, leaving a home port to attack nearby civilization.

 

[Namaspamus]

There could be more caravans to drive to the capital. This would spice the sea a lot cause we could become pirate ourselves at war (and maybe in other occasions). I know many players would hate it but all ressources could have to be delivered by caravans from the production site to the capital from time to time, and then all the trade network would have access to it. In a "caravan mod", you could have some four levels of caravan frequency to choose between.

Protecting and attacking convoys would be more funny to me than cutting abstract trade routes. If you found gold on a distant island, you have to make sure that you have frigates enough to protect your gold galions, cause pirates (and other civs) are interested in such cargos. If the ressources are quantified, a stolen caravan should provide a certain amount of the ressource.

It would be interesting if barbarian navies originated from a city-state, rather than popping up randomly.

Agree. So if you befriend an agressive naval city-state, they can perturb the trade of another civ for you, or protect yours. You could also pay them for it. With a caravan system, them could also sell back the cargaisons of ressources and become a "black market" where you can find ressources you have not at high price. Protecting such a city-state would bring you great benefits but also several enemies, so you could tell them: "please don't attack ships from civ x or y".

If not from a city-state, pirates could pop from pirate creeks or bays (maybe they do).

 

[awesome]

Land barbarians? Yes.
Pirates? No.

Please show me examples of big fleets of warships that have been taken out by marauding pirates.

Pirates have been annoying in a commerce-raider sense, not a military sense.


Except, these really don't have a big impact on anyone in a military sense. [Insurgents/partisans are not necessarily terrorists/barbarians.]


On the other hand, it seems like a pillaged improvement is temporarily knocked out (and needs to be repaired by a worker) rather than being permanently destroyed.

do the sea peoples and/or vikings count?

 

[Wardancing]

A lot of shipping companies who travel in modern day pirate infested waters are turning to private militaries for protection, companies such as Black Water. Most of these seamen are just that, seamen, so arming them isnt ideal, what is, is hiring protection. Although companies such as Black Water fly a corporate, not country flag, theyre still classified a military, no?

Would be interesting if you could play as pirates in civ, no cities, constant need to raid other civ's ships, attack ports, etc.

 

[SalmonSoil]

I like that idea. It would be more like the vikings, leaving a home port to attack nearby civilization.

I think they spawn from coastal barbarian camps. Which means the Ottomans might want to keep one of those around as a boat farm.

I think that it would certainly be interesting and accurate early game for there to be many barbarians, and the threat of sea invasion from barbarians. But the amount of barbarians needs to decline through the ages, by the Rennaisance it should be impossible for them to launch an invasion of any players.
Lots of barbarians in the modern era is not a good representation of pirates/insurgents, pirates are really only raiders, and insurgencies and other ideaological shifts are represented by social policies.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Ideally barb ships should be good at crippling trade and pillaging improvements, but, if you have a navy, they can't directly do anything.

That being said, I think they should bring back coastal raiding by barbarians like Civ2 (OK, it never really worked the way it was supposed to because 2 barbs and a leader would show up and you'd kill the stack in one move, but you get the idea). Once again, having a navy would protect you from this threat. It represents the history of piracy (as well as some naval raiders, like the Sea Peoples) and is a good in-game mechanism for encouraging the building of a navy.

 

[Gamemaster77]

It always bothered me how barb units would only stop at galleys considering that are pirate attacks on ships all the time in the real world (well not that often, but often enough). I also have thought though that later ground barbarians should be represented more as terrorists, not uncivilized people pillaging with some evil plan to pillage the whole world.

 

[generalwar]

Seems to me you didn't listen to what I actually said and just wanted to make your own point regardless of mine. Obviously the term "barbarian" is subjective and can be used to represent any non-aligned, opposing faction.

Term barbarian was made by Greeks and Romans for those not very developed states and tribe organised "states" . Romans called barbarians mostly germanic tribes that were always a threat for Roman empire and Greeks called Macedonians barbarians if I'm not wrong. But, I don't know to explain terms and things simple so everybody always say to me that I'm philosophing too much and complicating things. All right, I'll try to say it simple: Barbarians- nomad tribes that were wandering for good land and often pillaging villages,cities,etc. That's why I'm happy that barbarians will be a bigger threat because they knew to be a real pain in the ass(they overthrown West Roman empire in 476. AD, weren't they) .

 

[Louis XXIV]

Greeks called everybody that didn't speak Greek barbarians (that included the Persians). The Romans tended to apply it to Gauls, Germans, Huns, etc (the peoples we more commonly think of as barbarians).

 

[SeismoGraf]

When I read the title "Pirates", I expected a discussion about naval attacks from players sailing under false colors. Like the privateer unit from Civ4, which allowed you to attack other players and pillage their coastal improvements without declaring war.

This was quite fun and I always built a lot of privateers, which had +1 vision range and could later be upgraded to destroyers. It was fun, but I suspect that this feature is removed from Civ5.

Concerning "barbarians in ships" - excellent cannon fodder to gain XP with my navy.

 

[Ahriman]

do the sea peoples and/or vikings count?

No, those aren't pirates. Pirates capture ships and take their cargoes.
Vikings were landing raiding parties on the ground, and pillaging coastal settlements.

Ideally barb ships should be good at crippling trade and pillaging improvements, but, if you have a navy, they can't directly do anything.

Right, precisely. They should never be posing a threat to a serious navy. This was one of the ridiculous things in Empire Total War, where pirates were going around with huge fleets.

That being said, I think they should bring back coastal raiding
Once again, having a navy would protect you from this threat.

Agreed. Barbarian ships spawning land units when they reach coast would be cool. Intercept them before they get there to prevent the land units from forming.

I'm totally fine with barbarians being more of a threat; more interesting, more numerous. I'd just say; don't call them pirates.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

No, those aren't pirates. Pirates capture ships and take their cargoes.
Vikings were landing raiding parties on the ground, and pillaging coastal settlements.


Right, precisely. They should never be posing a threat to a serious navy. This was one of the ridiculous things in Empire Total War, where pirates were going around with huge fleets.


Agreed. Barbarian ships spawning land units when they reach coast would be cool. Intercept them before they get there to prevent the land units from forming.

I'm totally fine with barbarians being more of a threat; more interesting, more numerous. I'd just say; don't call them pirates.

Well, the navy can do damage all on its own... It might be possible for ranged bombardment of tiles to pillage them. Otherwise they should land units. And they should come from a camp just like other barbs

 

[Souron]

The trouble is, naval blockade is not an option, since cities can fire at ships, and ships can fire at cities.

I suppose you can give pirate ships a zone of dominance, but with the open sea there will usually be an alternative route around any small number of ships.

So trade blockades by pirates cannot work.

 

[Ahriman]

The trouble is, naval blockade is not an option, since cities can fire at ships, and ships can fire at cities.

Not if the city doesn't have 3 range. You could sit 3 tiles away blockading it while being out of range.

 

[Ahriman]

Not on the list of buildings we've seen.

Bombarding vs ships doesn't seem to be treated any differently from bombardment vs land.

So you really need a navy of your own to stop your cities getting hammered by enemy navy.

 

[Souron]

Not if the city doesn't have 3 range. You could sit 3 tiles away blockading it while being out of range.

Yeah, but how much blockading can you do three tiles away? With a large army -- maybe you can model the blockade of the South in the US civil war. But it's not something pirates could do.

 

[Zhahz]

It would be interesting if barbarian navies originated from a city-state, rather than popping up randomly.

More AI use of privateers would work.

 

[Ahriman]

Yeah, but how much blockading can you do three tiles away?

In game? You could cut off all its trade. Any enemy naval unit ending its turn within 3 range of a city will cut off its naval trade routes, if I understand correctly.

Its like the Civ4 blockade, but it happens automatically (doesn't need to be a separate mode/order).
You don't have to physically block every tile.