Plains vs Grassland Hills

[benjai]

Which do you prefer? And what do you do with these and why? I almost always mine both of them until I get windmills.

 

[ADHansa]

When my hyppyness is limiting i prefer plain/hills as they give more shields.
If happyness isn't problem i prefer grass/hills as they give less fooddeficit. With mined plains/hill you use 2 food to gain 4 Hammers, with 2 mined grasslandhills you use 2 food to gain 6 hammers.
If food is a problem you can windmill grass/hills and go even on food, on plains you always use food.
Only cite i enjoy plains/hill is next to floodplains.

I always try to mine my hills, except if i cant feed al the mines OR i have replaceble part but not railroads OR it's a gp city OR i can go from 1 to 2 commerse on the square on a commerce city with financial trait.

 

[MyOtherName]

I prefer grassland hills unless I have such a food surplus and such a low population cap that I just can't burn all my food on mines.

Farms are bad tile improvements. But alas, you need food (and often want lots of it), so you have to build them.

So grassland hills are better than plains hills because they reduce your need for farms.

For a quick demonstration: if your happiness is limited to 4 pop, then consider:

Case 1: You work two grassland farms and two plains hills for 8 hammers.
Case 2: You work one grassland farm and three grassland hills for 9 hammers.

So even in this example with low pop, the grassland hill was better!

 

[Viper Daimao]

I often build cottages on grassland hills. but ive been playing a catherine cottage spam strategy the last few games

 

[Zombie69]

Grassland hills are always preferable. You can actually get more production from grassland hills, because you need fewer farms to support them. For example, 1 grassland farm + 1 grassland hill = 4 food (neutral) + 3 hammers, so 1.5 hammer per tile. Whereas 2 grassland farms + 1 plains hill = 6 food (neutral) + 4 hammers, so only 1.33 hammer per tile.

The exception of course is your city site. The best possible place you could find to base a city is a plains hill, because of the defense bonus and because of the production bonus. A grassland hill only gets the defense bonus.

As for what improvements to make, as always people are asking the wrong question. The improvement shouldn't depend on the type of tile, but on the type of city. A great people farm should get windmills, a science should get windmills/cottages, a production city should get mines. Sometimes the best thing to put on a grassland hill is a cottage!

 

[Zombie69]

When my hyppyness is limiting i prefer plain/hills as they give more shields.

When happiness is a problem, grassland hills + farms give more hammers per tile than plains hills + farms, because you still want to remain food neutral. Unless you have some nice food resources around and happiness is really low, like 3 or 4.

 

[Beamup]

A great people farm should get windmills

I disagree. A GPF should get windmills on grassland hills only, and here's my reasoning.

The fundamental purpose of a GPF is to run specialists. The goal is, therefore, to have the maximum sustainable population consistent with keeping the maximum number of specialists. Any tile producing less than 2 food (or less than 3 if unhealthy) detracts from that mission, as it keeps the GPF from running as many specialists as it could if it did not work that tile, and hence should not be worked normally. (Grassland hills with a windmill are profitable to work so long as you have excess health, which is why windmills are desirable there.)

The exception, of course, is if you need to build an important building and don't have the hammers to do it. In that case, priority should go to getting that building up while losing the minimum number of specialist turns possible - i.e. work some high production tiles instead of specialists temporarily. Working a plains mine grants 4-5 hammers per specialist turn lost, while a plains windmill grants only 2 or 3 hammers per specialist turn lost. It also grants some commerce, but we can neglect that.

Of course, the windmill also grants 1 food. But if you're already at your maximum sustainable population, that can't add anything except, perhaps, letting you whip out an excess pop point once those single foods add up to a new (unsustainable) citizen. So maybe that 1 food will, over the long run, convert to 1 hammer as well. The mine still comes out well ahead.

Even if you want a continuous stream of hammers, the mine is still often to be preferred. Assume you're at your maximum population without working any plains hills at all - also assume you have excess health and happiness. Then you have two options:
- Build and work 2 windmills instead of 1 specialist. (4 or 6 hammers)
- Build and work 1 mine instead of 1 specialist. (4 or 5 hammers)
So the windmills gain a single hammer if you have Replacable Parts and RR, but you can't choose to run another specialist instead unless you're willing to starve the city. The mine has superior flexibility for only a small cost. Before RP, it is clearly superior.

OTOH, if you don't have enough health or happiness, the mine comes out the clear winner. If you lack health, it's 3 windmills for 2 specialists, or 2 mines for 2 specialists. That's 6-9 hammers vs. 8-10. If you lack happiness, then it's 1 windmill or 1 mine for 1 specialist, which the mine of course wins hands down.

So that's the upshot. Routinely working plains windmills reduces the GPF's capacity to perform its primary task, as it will be unable to run as many specialists as if it simply left that tile idle. When a temporary production boost is needed, mines provide more hammers per GPP lost than windmills, and are therefore preferred. Even when you need a long-term production boost, mines pay only a small cost for the ability to swap back to GPP production if desired.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

As for what improvements to make, as always people are asking the wrong question. The improvement shouldn't depend on the type of tile, but on the type of city. A great people farm should get windmills, a science should get windmills/cottages, a production city should get mines. Sometimes the best thing to put on a grassland hill is a cottage!

Phase of game makes a difference here, too. You might windmill a production city's hill pre-biology, with the intention of converting it once the extra food kicks in.

A grassland hill at a commerce city might see all three improvements; mines early (not normally worked, but available when extra production is required), windmills later (allowing some commerce while food neutral), cottages post biology (hopefully running in emancipation).

 

[Zombie69]

I disagree. A GPF should get windmills on grassland hills only, and here's my reasoning.

Agreed. I was assuming the GPF wouldn't have plains hills at all (if it has them then it will be better specialized as a production city), or if it has one, it wouldn't use it anyway.

 

[Beamup]

Fair enough.

 

[Zombie69]

Even if you want a continuous stream of hammers, the mine is still often to be preferred. Assume you're at your maximum population without working any plains hills at all - also assume you have excess health and happiness. Then you have two options:
- Build and work 2 windmills instead of 1 specialist. (4 or 6 hammers)
- Build and work 1 mine instead of 1 specialist. (4 or 5 hammers)

That doesn't make any sense at all. If you have unworked tiles, excess health and happiness, and unused food, then how is that "your maximum population"?

Also, GPF have very high food and very low production capability. Therefore when you need something built there, it makes a lot more sense to build it through slavery (or to buy it, if that's an option).

 

[Beamup]

That doesn't make any sense at all. If you have unworked tiles, excess health and happiness, and unused food, then how is that "your maximum population"?

You have unworked tiles, excess health and happiness, but no unused food (you're working all 2+ food tiles, and all surplus is feeding specialists). So you can take a specialist off being a specialist and put him to work on a windmill - you now have 1 food surplus. Eventually you grow and put the new citizen to work on a second windmill. So you are again at 0 food surplus, with 2 fewer unworked tiles, 1 fewer excess health and happiness - but 1 fewer specialist. Hence, you trade 1 specialist for the 2 windmills.

Or in the case of the mine, you have unworked tiles, excess health and happiness, but no unused food. So you can take a specialist off being a specialist and put him to work on a mine. That one's simple, just a swap of which 0-food 'tile' the citizen is working.

Also, GPF have very high food and very low production capability. Therefore when you need something built there, it makes a lot more sense to build it through slavery (or to buy it, if that's an option).

Agreed. But if you did want some hammers, you're better off getting them from a mine than a windmill - that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying it's a good idea, just that it's better than a windmill.

 

[Zombie69]

Ah, i see. The difference was our definition of what unused food means. For me, a tile with 1 food that isn't used counts as unused food; for you it doesn't.

Of course, in your above example, the windmill is better at adding production (because you can get 2 tiles instead of one), although it takes longer to get there (because you need to grow a level first).

However, personally i'd just take off 2 specialists right away and put them both on windmills. This way, it will take only half as many turns to reach the new pop level. If you have 4 or 5 windmills available, then take off 4 or 5 specilists. Losing 4 specialists for 5 turns is no worse than losing 1 specialist for 20 turns, and you get your new pop faster. As soon as you reach the new pop level, go back to 0 extra food by turning your specialists back on.

A few turns before you're finished building whatever it was you needed hammers for, slave rush it to get rid of the extra pop point and get back to your former level. This way, you'll get your building faster and more efficiently than you would with a mine.

 

[Beamup]

Ah, i see. The difference was our definition of what unused food means. For me, a tile with 1 food that isn't used counts as unused food; for you it doesn't.

Exactly.

Of course, in your above example, the windmill is better at adding production (because you can get 2 tiles instead of one), although it takes longer to get there (because you need to grow a level first).

It's only marginally better, and only if you also have Replaceable Parts. Then it's 6 hammers vs. 5, not a big gain.

However, personally i'd just take off 2 specialists right away and put them both on windmills. This way, it will take only half as many turns to reach the new pop level. If you have 4 or 5 windmills available, then take off 4 or 5 specilists. Losing 4 specialists for 5 turns is no worse than losing 1 specialist for 20 turns, and you get your new pop faster. As soon as you reach the new pop level, go back to 0 extra food by turning your specialists back on.

A few turns before you're finished building whatever it was you needed hammers for, slave rush it to get rid of the extra pop point and get back to your former level. This way, you'll get your building faster and more efficiently than you would with a mine.

This assumes that what you're building will take longer than it'll take for the population to grow. If it doesn't, refer to my first post on hammers per specialist turn lost (which I will henceforth call H/STL for brevity) - the mine is clearly superior in H/STL. And the hammers from the slave rush don't make up that difference. So you're essentially banking on the extra hammers the additional pop point will contribute before you whip it out of existence to make up the gap.

I'll illustrate. Assume there are 2 plains hills available, also assume RP and RR. If I mine and work both of them, I'm getting 10 hammers/turn at a loss of 2 specialists. If you windmill and work both of them, you're getting 6 hammers/turn at a loss of 2 specialists initially, and have 2 surplus food. So, I'm gaining at a rate of 4 HPT. Let's assume that the city is currently size 10. So it requires 40 food to grow, which will take 20 turns. At that point, I have obtained 200 hammers, while you have 120 plus a whippable point, so assume 150. I've gotten 5 H/STL so far, you've gotten 3.75 H/STL. But at this point you're running 1 more specialist than I am, so you're gaining - currently I still make 5 H/STL, while you make 6 H/STL.

Working out a bit of algebra shows that, in 50 more turns, we will be tied in H/STL. I will have produced 700 hammers and lost 140 specialist turns. You will have produced 450 hammers and lost 90 specialist turns. After that point, you start pulling ahead.

Reversing the process to see how many specalist turns are lost to produce a given number of hammers, we can see that the efficiency of the two setups will be the same when 450 hammers are produced. Keep in mind that this is 450 hammers above and beyond what the city would produce naturally (from engineers, priests, farmed plains, windmilled grass hills).

But what if the city is size 20 to start with? Then it takes 30 turns to grow. In this setup, the breakeven point is at 150 turns, with 1500 hammers/300 specialist turns vs. 900 hammers/180 specialist turns. Gonna be building a string of buildings costing more than 1050 hammers (minimum - this assumes the city itself provides the only other source of hammers) often?

So unless you need to build a long string of buildings, the mines are the more efficient choice. You'll get a short string of buildings - and certainly any one individual building - much faster and more efficiently with the MINES, not the windmills.

 

[Zombie69]

It's only marginally better, and only if you also have Replaceable Parts. Then it's 6 hammers vs. 5, not a big gain.

Actually, it's 6 hammers vs. 4. I don't know how your mines produce 5 hammers and mine (pun not intended) only produce 4. If you're talking about railroads, that's pretty far in the game. I've only once played a game that lasted so long, and i quit the game a few turns later because it wasn't fun anymore.

And even without replaceable parts, windmills can still do better than mines. Sure it's 4 hammers vs. 4, and requires an extra population point. But that extra population point can be gained easily in a GPF and then with slave rushing you can turn the used food into hammers.

This assumes that what you're building will take longer than it'll take for the population to grow.

To help population grow, you can turn some more specialists to 1 food tiles. Whenever i'm below the optimal population, i would always switch all specialists to 1 food tiles, so that i can regrow as fast as possible. This time can also be used for more production. Micromanaged properly, it really doesn't take long for the whole cycle because GPF are typically very rich in food. Taking off specialists, even to put them on 1 food tiles, can make you grow really fast. Even if your building was pretty cheap, you can usually grow back your population in time to switch back to specialists.

I'll illustrate. Assume there are 2 plains hills available, also assume RP and RR. If I mine and work both of them, I'm getting 10 hammers/turn at a loss of 2 specialists. If you windmill and work both of them, you're getting 6 hammers/turn at a loss of 2 specialists initially, and have 2 surplus food. So, I'm gaining at a rate of 4 HPT. Let's assume that the city is currently size 10. So it requires 40 food to grow, which will take 20 turns. At that point, I have obtained 200 hammers, while you have 120 plus a whippable point, so assume 150. I've gotten 5 H/STL so far, you've gotten 3.75 H/STL. But at this point you're running 1 more specialist than I am, so you're gaining - currently I still make 5 H/STL, while you make 6 H/STL.

I assume no RP and no RR because most of my game is played with neither. Mines = 8 hammers/turn. Windmills = 4 hammers/turn + 2 food/turn. A size 10 city only requires 20 food to grow because a GPF always has a granary (this part you forgot in your post and is a huge reason why slave rushing everything makes sense and you don't need any hills in the first place anyway).

It takes 10 turns to grow. By that time, mines have given you 80 hammers, while windmills have given me 40 hammers, plus a pop whippable for 30 hammers, so i've gained 70. You have 4 H/STL so far, and i have 3.5 H/STL. At this point i'm gaining one more specialist, getting 7 H/STL from then on, or i can use the extra +2 food and +1 pop to run one of your mines, getting 7.5 H/STL. Assuming the latter case for easier calculations (because then we can ignore the specialist loss as it's 2 per turn all the time in either case), it will only take me 5 more turns after the first 10 to surpass your total production, and everything else after that is pure gain.

But what if the city is size 20 to start with? Then it takes 30 turns to grow. In this setup, the breakeven point is at 150 turns, with 1500 hammers/300 specialist turns vs. 900 hammers/180 specialist turns. Gonna be building a string of buildings costing more than 1050 hammers (minimum - this assumes the city itself provides the only other source of hammers) often?

No, it only takes 15 turns, because of the granary. In those 15 turns you take a 30 total production lead (120 vs. 60 + 30), which i catch up to in just 15 more turns of production at +1 pop. 30 turns is pretty far from the 150 turns you claim.

 

[Beamup]

Actually, it's 6 hammers vs. 4. I don't know how your mines produce 5 hammers and mine (pun not intended) only produce 4. If you're talking about railroads, that's pretty far in the game. I've only once played a game that lasted so long, and i quit the game a few turns later because it wasn't fun anymore.

Yes, I was assuming RR too. I tried to make that clear everywhere, but I forgot a couple spots. Sorry.

And even without replaceable parts, windmills can still do better than mines. Sure it's 4 hammers vs. 4, and requires an extra population point. But that extra population point can be gained easily in a GPF and then with slave rushing you can turn the used food into hammers.

To help population grow, you can turn some more specialists to 1 food tiles. Whenever i'm below the optimal population, i would always switch all specialists to 1 food tiles, so that i can regrow as fast as possible. This time can also be used for more production. Micromanaged properly, it really doesn't take long for the whole cycle because GPF are typically very rich in food. Taking off specialists, even to put them on 1 food tiles, can make you grow really fast. Even if your building was pretty cheap, you can usually grow back your population in time to switch back to specialists.

Ah, but by putting more specialists on low-food tiles you're losing more specialist turns. More on that later.

I assume no RP and no RR because most of my game is played with neither. Mines = 8 hammers/turn. Windmills = 4 hammers/turn + 2 food/turn. A size 10 city only requires 20 food to grow because a GPF always has a granary (this part you forgot in your post and is a huge reason why slave rushing everything makes sense and you don't need any hills in the first place anyway).

AARRGGHH! How could I forget the granary?

It takes 10 turns to grow. By that time, mines have given you 80 hammers, while windmills have given me 40 hammers, plus a pop whippable for 30 hammers, so i've gained 70. You have 4 H/STL so far, and i have 3.5 H/STL. At this point i'm gaining one more specialist, getting 7 H/STL from then on, or i can use the extra +2 food and +1 pop to run one of your mines, getting 7.5 H/STL. Assuming the latter case for easier calculations (because then we can ignore the specialist loss as it's 2 per turn all the time in either case), it will only take me 5 more turns after the first 10 to surpass your total production, and everything else after that is pure gain.

No, actually. I have no clue where you're getting those numbers. If you have a specialist after you grow, you're producing 4 hpt, 0 surplus food, and are short 1 specialist. That's 4 H/STL, equal to the mines - which means you will never catch up. If we assume that you work another mine after the 2 windmills, it's 2 mines vs. 1 mine and 2 windmills. That's 8 hammers in each case, for 2 specialists. Again, you're stuck at 4 H/STL and are gaining nothing.

No, it only takes 15 turns, because of the granary. In those 15 turns you take a 30 total production lead (120 vs. 60 + 30), which i catch up to in just 15 more turns of production at +1 pop. 30 turns is pretty far from the 150 turns you claim.

No, again, without RP you can never gain at all because H/STL will be equal after you grow from the windmills and less before that. Replaceable Parts is critical to make the windmills at all viable.

Now, what about the possibility of swapping specialists to other low-food tiles to regrow? Well, 1 food is worth about 1.5 hammers in a size 10 city (20 to grow - with the granary this time - and 30 from the whip). In a size 20 city, it's about 1 hammer. That's a really bad exchange rate - a 1F1H tile therefore generates 2-2.5 H/STL.

EDIT to add update:
Correcting my prior scenarios with RP+RR thanks to Zombie reminding me about the Granary (I really need a dunce-cap smiley here).

At the size 10 city, it takes 10 turns to grow. Over those 10 turns 2 mines will produce 100 hammers. 2 windmills will produce 60 hammers plus one whippable pop, for a total of 90. Then the windmill city works a mine for simplicity, bringing total production to 11. Gaining by 1 HPT, the two cases will tie after a total of 20 turns at 200 extra hammers - still beyond most buildings.

At the size 20 city, it takes 15 turns to grow. Mines have produced 150 hammers, windmills 90 + whip = 120. Now it takes 30 more turns to catch up, total of 450 extra hammers.

What if we have RP, but not RR, so Windmills produce 3 and mines 4?

At the size 10 city, after the 10 turns to grow, the mines have produced 80 hammers and the windmills 60+30=90. Here the windmills have won already.

At the size 20 city, after the 15 turns to grow, the mines have produced 120 hammers and the windmills 90+30=120. And from there the windmills pull ahead.

So the conclusion is this:
- Prior to Replaceable Parts, the mines win hands-down in all cases.
- Between Replaceable Parts and Railroad, the windmills win handily in all but small projects.
- After Railroad, the mines win on all but pretty large to very large (depending on city size, likely to be on the upper end at that stage of the game) projects.

 

[Zombie69]

No, actually. I have no clue where you're getting those numbers. If you have a specialist after you grow, you're producing 4 hpt, 0 surplus food, and are short 1 specialist. That's 4 H/STL, equal to the mines - which means you will never catch up. If we assume that you work another mine after the 2 windmills, it's 2 mines vs. 1 mine and 2 windmills. That's 8 hammers in each case, for 2 specialists. Again, you're stuck at 4 H/STL and are gaining nothing.

Some brain fart caused me to think at that point that i had been making 2 hpt less then you, when in fact it was 4. So you're right, i'll never catch up.

However, it's worth noting that below size 20, one food is worth more production than one hammer. And since it's easier for these cities to generate food than hammers, slave rushing is usually your best bet.

Here's a better example that illustrates the way i would personally go about it. It uses neither mines nor windmills (like i said, i find plains hills useless for a GPF and wouldn't use them anyway). For the sake of the example, let's assume we're at size 15, with our granary half full because we never made any food after we grew to that level (i.e. you're at 25/50 food). Let's say the building we need requires 180 hammers.

Use 6 pop points to get it immediately. Notice that regardless of the result in the end, this method has the distinct advantage of getting you the building faster, and thus getting its bonuses faster. This is not to be underestimated.

So now you're down to size 9. You've lost 6 specialists but are now making a 12 food surplus because of it. You're losing 12 GPP per turn in exchange for the 12 food per turn you're now making. Your food is at 25/38. You need 13 food to grow. After 2 turns, you've lost 2 GPP / specialist x 6 specialists per turn x 2 turns = 24 GPP. Then you're at 25 + 2 x 12 = 49 food, i.e. 49/38. This brings you up a level. You grow. You keep half of the 38 food for this level, and all the rest. This brings you to 38/2 + (49 - 38) = 49 - 38/2 = 30. So you're now at 30/40 food. You've grown and can now get one of your specialists back.

You're now losing 10 GPP per turn and making 10 food per turn. Grow for 1 turn. you've lost 10 more GPP, for a total of 34 GPP. You've gained 10 more food, for a total of 40/40. Grow to 20/42. Add one more specialist.

You're now losing 8 GPP per turn and making 8 food per turn. Grow for 2 turns. You've lost 16 more GPP, for a total of 50 GPP. You've gained 16 more food, for a total of 46/42. Grow to 46 - 42/2 = 25, so 25/44. Add one more specialist.

You're now losing 6 GPP per turn and making 6 food per turn. Grow for 4 turns. You've lost 24 more GPP, for a total of 74. You've gained 24 food, for a total of 49/44. Grow to 49 - 44/2 = 27, so 27/46. Add one more specialist.

You're now losing 4 GPP per turn and making 4 food per turn. Grow for 5 turns. You've lost 20 more GPP, for a total of 94. You've gained 20 food, for a total of 47/46. Grow to 47 - 46/2 = 24, so 24/48. Add one more specialist.

You're now losing 2 GPP per turn and making 2 food per turn. Grow for 12 turns. You've lost 24 more GPP, for a total of 118. You've gained 24 food, for a total of 48/48. Grow to 24/50. Get back your last specialist.

Overall, you've lost 118 GPP to gain 180 production.

With your method, assuming no RP and no RR, with mines you make 4 hammers for every lost specialist, or 2 hammers for every GPP. So for 180 hammers, you need to lose 90 GPP, compared to my 118. However, i got my building much faster. If that building was the national epic, which increases GPP, at the end of however many turns it takes you to finish it, i'll have more GPP than you do. If it's another building, then i've got whatever other bonuses it offers faster than you did. If the bonus isn't worth it, then i can ask you why you're taking off specialists to make it faster in the first place.

Now, with this method, do you see why i consider plains hills with mines worthless in a GPF? At least the windmill could have been combined with my strategy to grow back in size faster by taking off additional specialists and puting them on the windmills. This makes the strategy even more efficient and lets it surpass yours, even without taking into account the fact that i get the building (and its bonuses) faster.

 

[Beamup]

No, no, no. You're not understanding my point - take another look at the second half of post #12.

I fully and completely agree that the best way to build anything at a GPF is to rush it - choprush, poprush, cashrush, whatever. Poprush is indeed particularly attractive.

What I'm arguing is that, if you require that a build not be rushed for some reason, then the most efficient way to have a plains hill contribute to that goal is with a mine.

Put another way, my claim is that mines on plains hills for a GPF are less suboptimal than windmills on plains hills. Both are, indeed, suboptimal unless you're unable to rush for whatever reason.

 

[Zombie69]

Why would you ever require that a build not be rushed? If it's because you don't have the right civic, then i suggest you do as i do and keep slavery all game, and abuse the power of pop rushing in all cities that can use it.

 

[Beamup]

It's a hypothetical, as I've tried to make clear. But to give one obvious example where it could come up, maybe you're playing a variant where your civics are artifically restricted.