Player stats, sales, and reception speculation thread

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So I think this
gets it backwards. We are starting from the fact of low popular success and trying to give a critical account for why that is.
"the core design of the franchise" is an emotive point.

"finding it fun" is an emotive point.

It's like high-level RTS players identifying problems in game balance. These are valid pain points players are raising.

They are not, however, solutions. "don't do the thing I don't like" is not a solution.

Which is why developers in my RTS example still ultimately make the changes to balance in the end.

You can argue that Crises are a mistake. So what does Firaxis replace them (or Age transitions) with?

How does the franchise continues to innovate to ensure future success if "remove it" takes away what is actually new about this entry? If a hypothetical Civ VI 2.0 is a success this time around - what would be next?

These are the design arguments that need answering. This is the burden the developers have. Even if "remove the big swings and it magically makes a success" works this time, what does next time look like? Are remasters all people want now? Is that the future we're looking at?

Because as a longstanding Civ fan, that's kinda depressing.
 
Has anyone tried to quantify how many negative reviews are due to Civ-switching and/or the Ages system? Wasn't the first week or two (which is over half of the Steam reviews) full of complaints about the UI and unfinished state of the game?
 
"the core design of the franchise" is an emotive point.

"finding it fun" is an emotive point.

It's like high-level RTS players identifying problems in game balance. These are valid pain points players are raising.

They are not, however, solutions. "don't do the thing I don't like" is not a solution.

Which is why developers in my RTS example still ultimately make the changes to balance in the end.

You can argue that Crises are a mistake. So what does Firaxis replace them (or Age transitions) with?

How does the franchise continues to innovate to ensure future success if "remove it" takes away what is actually new about this entry? If a hypothetical Civ VI 2.0 is a success this time around - what would be next?

These are the design arguments that need answering. This is the burden the developers have. Even if "remove the big swings and it magically makes a success" works this time, what does next time look like? Are remasters all people want now? Is that the future we're looking at?

Because as a longstanding Civ fan, that's kinda depressing.
Brother, what people are asking for is a bit of subtlety. People don't like the way the harsh transitions break up the gameplay. That's the emotive stuff we're talking about right?

Let's address it from a design perspective.
They labelled the snowballing as a major issue.
They should look at bringing the AI and the players closer together to keep the challenge in, prevent players from exiting games too early, prevent leads from getting too long.

I'm not going to just say "get on with it" to the developers and expect a magical solution. So I'll present my idea, and others can present, then it becomes a useful dialogue.

My suggestion is to bring back some stuff like Corruption or Health. Anti-yields that go up when your empire sprawls too much. Then you need to address them with structures and policies.
If you want the AI to continue to cheat, then give the AI a bone and have these mechanics affect them less.
Make the mechanics mild so that they don't cause frustration, and cap their effect to a certain value like -25% production at most.

To add to the narrative of the game, have high corruption, and low health values, produce random events, like Rebellions and Plagues. Players will enjoy inciting events on enemies, overcoming negative events and learning from past mistakes - eg. "Now I've learned to keep Hospitals so I don't get affected by Plague like my opponents".

That's just one idea. Would it be better than what we have already? Who knows. But it address the complaint without compromising on what the original feature was designed to do.
 
Has anyone tried to quantify how many negative reviews are due to Civ-switching and/or the Ages system? Wasn't the first week or two (which is over half of the Steam reviews) full of complaints about the UI and unfinished state of the game?
I've looked at it a few times. Somebody did a more exhaustive study early on. It's a whole bunch of things. No one factor - certainly not civ-switching, which isn't mentioned in reviews nearly as often as its mentioned in this forum - is dominant. The most common complaint may be the simple "not fun", which isn't helpful to assessing exactly what the reviewer didn't enjoy.

I've thought about creating a more thorough study, because I'd be interested in the results, but the amount of time required to do it isn't something I've been willing to spend.
 
I am 100% in agreement with this:
These are the design arguments that need answering. This is the burden the developers have.
And so this
You can argue that Crises are a mistake. So what does Firaxis replace them (or Age transitions) with?
is a fair challenge. (I'm understanding you to say not "how does F fix this in 7?" but rather "what would be an equally big innovation that might be more successful than those proved to be?"

I will give you at least a post in response. And I might start a new thread.

Yes, as the developers go into a new number, they have to ask themselves "how can we do something innovative enough that it isn't just #.2?" Because the game can just as easily get panned in that way. Be disappointing to fans like yourself in that way.

Initially, all I was going to do was acknowledge that your challenge was a fair one. But as I started to mull it over, a possible answer started to come to me. So let me see if I can flesh it out. It does draw on the one criticism I have voiced of 7's developers: that they started with an idea about history, rather than an idea about game play. Mine starts with an idea (or a cluster of ideas) about game play.

Stay tuned.
 
You can argue that Crises are a mistake. So what does Firaxis replace them (or Age transitions) with?
It's worth noting that Crises have always been able to be turned off from day one. I haven't played with them past the first couple of games.
I've looked at it a few times. Somebody did a more exhaustive study early on. It's a whole bunch of things. No one factor - certainly not civ-switching, which isn't mentioned in reviews nearly as often as its mentioned in this forum - is dominant. The most common complaint may be the simple "not fun", which isn't helpful to assessing exactly what the reviewer didn't enjoy.

I've thought about creating a more thorough study, because I'd be interested in the results, but the amount of time required to do it isn't something I've been willing to spend.
Do you have the link to that study? The only things similar I've been able to find are Steam Review summaries done by AI.
 
How does the franchise continues to innovate to ensure future success if "remove it" takes away what is actually new about this entry? If a hypothetical Civ VI 2.0 is a success this time around - what would be next?
Civ VI 3.0 obviously. I can't believe Civ VI 1.0 was the best possible iteration of Civ VI or the pinnacle of the series with hexagons and 1UPT. Neither I believe Civ VI 2.0 could not be improved further.

They have done it already. Take, for example, Civ 1 -> Civ 2. Civ 2 had a new engine, but the gameplay was almost the same as in the previous version. It brought a lot of newcomers who had not tried Civ 1 but were hooked by the sequel.
 
You can argue that Crises are a mistake. So what does Firaxis replace them (or Age transitions) with?
The common outcry I hear is more interactive crises as a replacement mechanism which I also prefer the idea of. Like actually fighting off barbarian tribes instead of picking a new crappy policy card. What if you actually had to focus money, production, and turns into healthcare in some way to fight the plague. Burn buildings to stop contaminations. Interactive things happening and things you are doing to effect it on the game map, not just the policy screen. But currently a lot of players just turn them off and say the game is better for it. When simply removing something improves many players approval of the game, that is a fair criticism.

How does the franchise continues to innovate to ensure future success if "remove it" takes away what is actually new about this entry? If a hypothetical Civ VI 2.0 is a success this time around - what would be next?
This entry has a lot of new innovations but this question is phrased in a way that suggests there are only 1 or 2. Removing 1 or 2 new features could actually serve to remove a distraction or two from multiple innovated features many players do like instead of spending resource and effort to fix something everyone prefers just turning off. (Note: I still play with crises on but I do not particularly care for them) Taking out crises and Age transitions would not make this anywhere close to Civ VI 2.0. But also, removing ages I suspect would be more effort than it is worth.


Soren Johnson famously stated that "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun right out of a game" and I agree with him, it is a good quote. Yet, I also think that it can be said that "Given the opportunity, game designers can innovate the fun right out of a game". They want to be credited with the next great idea in the genre or they get attached to an idea that should be cut. They seek to make a big impact on the industry but every new idea is not a great idea. Plus, most great ideas almost always start out as just good ideas and then have to be properly honed. If done incorrectly a good idea can become a bad idea.

If the game and that "beloved idea" evolve into two different directions yet the game designer doesn't want to let go of the idea, it can cause the game to suffer.
 
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Has anyone tried to quantify how many negative reviews are due to Civ-switching and/or the Ages system? Wasn't the first week or two (which is over half of the Steam reviews) full of complaints about the UI and unfinished state of the game?
There are also a lot of negative reviews that complain about Denuvo (justly!) and about crashes or other problems playing the game. Those reviews tend to remain even once the bugs are fixed.
 
There are also a lot of negative reviews that complain about Denuvo (justly!) and about crashes or other problems playing the game. Those reviews tend to remain even once the bugs are fixed.
That's right. Civ switching and Ages are a sizeable percentage of the reviews for sure but people act like that 100% of the negative reviews are due to them, so the game is a total failure and can never be redeemed.

A minority of the reviews are due to Civ switching and Ages. The UI, unfinished state of the game/missing features, crashes/bugs/errors, base game too expensive, dumb AI giving away cities for nothing, DLC announced before the game released plus it being too expensive, Civ going "woke" (Harriet Tubman), Denuvo, 2k "spyware" policy, plus other gameplay decisions like removal of builders/workers, Settlement cap & Legacy Paths and more I'm sure I'm forgetting are all very common points in the negative reviews.

Unfortunately many of those reviews from the first week about the UI and missing features will never be changed too. If Civ VII released today, it's first couple of weeks of reviews would be much better than the 52% it had received. I like Civ VII, but it shouldn't have been released in the state it was in. It needed more time.

If Civ VI can go from 66% to 90% & if No Man's Sky can go from 29% to 81%, then Civ VII should be able to hit at least 70% and become mostly positive one day.
 
If Civ VII released today, it's first couple of weeks of reviews would be much better than the 52% it had received.

Given the current ratings coming through are still on average sub 50% (and dropping if I understand right), I'm not sure I would agree with you. The general audience still seems to like it's unfinished and buggy and overpriced, and not sufficiently addressed.
 
Then there are positive reviews like this:


"First i am going to say i was disappointed with this game." - 👍

If there were no goodwill from the players, the ratings would be worse.
 
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Do you have the link to that study?
I believe it got lost when a hacker hacked the site and jumbled up a bunch of threads.

It was one of those "word cloud" studies that one can do of big sets of data.

The mods have done a heroic job of undoing the hacker's damage, but one permanent loss, as far as I know, was that study.

I wish just that study could be found and made available in this thread. If I remember, the impacted thread was the predecessor to this one.

Edit: hey, surely somebody downloaded it and could repost it. The poster made it available as a PDF, iirc, or in some similar form.
 
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How does the franchise continues to innovate to ensure future success if "remove it" takes away what is actually new about this entry? If a hypothetical Civ VI 2.0 is a success this time around - what would be next?

These are the design arguments that need answering. This is the burden the developers have. Even if "remove the big swings and it magically makes a success" works this time, what does next time look like? Are remasters all people want now? Is that the future we're looking at?

I don't think removing unpopular features from Civ 7 will get it anywhere close to Civ VI 2.0; in terms of reception or design space.

Firaxis should iterate and improve on 7 to the best of their ability and then take lessons learned into the next project. Firaxis should now have a ton more data, telemetry, and sales figures to help guide future development.

There is a ton of unexplored design space in 4X.

I don't think remasters are all people want now. I do wonder if the recent clamour for remasters is a subtle admission that some of the community has lost faith in the leadership steering the franchise. Combined with the publisher's meddling in the dev process.
 
Here is an opportunity for some of the younger players to compare Civ7 to what some of us old dogs call "real Civ".

Amazon Prime game is offering a free GOG.com key for Civilization IV: Complete Edition here. The free game is available through December 3rd.

Thanks to Lymond for the heads up.
 
I'd say the core of the game is already good - fundamentally it's still Civ and the 1/3 improved portion (as tough as that is to define exactly, but I'd say commanders, no builders, town/city split, events, highly detailed Civs) is solid.

The game is let down by part of the 1/3 new, and not even then there's some good bits (Leader & Civ mixing and matching has detractors, but it seems to be in a similar place to Districts or 1UPT in terms of popularity vs detractors). It's the ages and civ switching and all their attendant baggage which seem like they are the millstone around the games' neck, and the problem is that they are so interconnected that removing them is a massive undertaking if Firaxis wanted to do that.

Honestly, I think if you had the 1/3 improved, plus leader/civ mixing and momentos as the new component we'd still be talking about a dramatically updated Civ which had alienated far fewer people...
Mementos seem like the worst new thing in Civ7 in terms of violating the spirit of civ by adding a metagame grinding mechanic.

I doubt any particular feature is an unredeemable failure. However, some of the new features were VERY BADLY done without reasonable things being done to make it better before release.
 
Here is an opportunity for some of the younger players to compare Civ7 to what some of us old dogs call "real Civ".

Amazon Prime game is offering a free GOG.com key for Civilization IV: Complete Edition here. The free game is available through December 3rd.

Thanks to Lymond for the heads up.
Civ 5 and Civ 6 are very much "real Civ", and I don't even like Civ 6 very much. However, I do think it would be a smart decision to have Civ 8 be more inspired by Civ 4 than Civ 5/6.
 
Civ 5 and Civ 6 are very much "real Civ", and I don't even like Civ 6 very much. However, I do think it would be a smart decision to have Civ 8 be more inspired by Civ 4 than Civ 5/6.
I understand but just so you know, I believe "real Civ" is strategic level pseudohistory and having cities sprawling all over the map just ruins the scale and one unit per tile is absurd. If they want a tactical layer then build it but bring big back bigger and better than ever. :D

edit: Also, since the last few tactical city building games are so starkly different than the first four real civ games, why shouldn't they branch off the series and do both. People will buy all the Civ they release so why not?
 
Mementos seem like the worst new thing in Civ7 in terms of violating the spirit of civ by adding a metagame grinding mechanic.

I doubt any particular feature is an unredeemable failure. However, some of the new features were VERY BADLY done without reasonable things being done to make it better before release.
I listed momentos less for whether they are good and more because along with leader mixing/matching they are disconnected from the other new mechanics. Ages, civ switching, legacy paths, crises... They're all bound up with one another in a way which makes them very difficult to change without affecting the others.

The same isn't true for momentos and leader/civ mixing even if those have annoyed a fair number of people. My suspicion is that if we had just had those two mechanics people wouldn't be complaining as much, and that the game would still feel like a fresh addition to the feanchise... Emphasis on the "as much" though.
 
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