Player stats, sales, and reception speculation thread

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With snowballing, you can win at turn 75. Without snowballing, you can win at turn 175. Why would it be any better to win late than early? Is it important to play long games by winning very late?
If players don't use 3/4 of the game's content that's clearly problem with game design. If they don't use the same 3/4 of the game content in every their game, that's a big problem.

Another point of view is how quick the player could be bored with the game. Let's say you need 100 playthroughs to get bored without new content. If your games take 2 hours, you'll stop playing the game after 200 hours, but if you need 10 hours of interesting gameplay to finish the game, that will be 1000 hours and much easier for the company to sell the content to such player.
 
Uhm, sorry but this makes no sense.

With snowballing, you can win at turn 75. Without snowballing, you can win at turn 175. Why would it be any better to win late than early? Is it important to play long games by winning very late?

The goal should not be to prolong games. The goal should be to make victories easier and quicker to achieve.

Players "winning" at turn 75 or turn 175 - assuming the game speed is standard or longer - results in the player not seeing 50-80% of the content of the game, makes the player complain that the AI is too easy and increases boredom of the game.

The goal should be to make the AI challenging enough to the point the player hasn't decided that after playing 20% of the game they've decided they've already won, as well as making the rest of the game as fun as the first 20%.
 
If players don't use 3/4 of the game's content that's clearly problem with game design. If they don't use the same 3/4 of the game content in every their game, that's a big problem.
Problem to whom? For devs pride?

Another point of view is how quick the player could be bored with the game. Let's say you need 100 playthroughs to get bored without new content. If your games take 2 hours, you'll stop playing the game after 200 hours, but if you need 10 hours of interesting gameplay to finish the game, that will be 1000 hours and much easier for the company to sell the content to such player.
Oh no.
 
Players "winning" at turn 75 or turn 175 - assuming the game speed is standard or longer - results in the player not seeing 50-80% of the content of the game, makes the player complain that the AI is too easy and increases boredom of the game.

The goal should be to make the AI challenging enough to the point the player hasn't decided that after playing 20% of the game they've decided they've already won, as well as making the rest of the game as fun as the first 20%.
This is easy. Just hire Soren Johnsson and his team to work on AI. In no time, you have an AI that decimates poor players.

However, better AI is not going to solve late game boredom. Firaxis correctly determined that late game decisions are inconsequential. Build this, build that, who cares, it is the same over and over. Old World suffers from the same late game fatigue if you drag it too long. Large maps increase fatigue level, which is probably the reason why they were not included in the Civ 7 release. They just had to give it up because players wanted it, probably because exploring a huge map is so much fun. Again, it is easy to see why the 2nd age was themed for colonization. I have to give Ed Beach and his team credit for trying, but they didnt find a winning formula yet. It is possible it doesn't exist.
 
Even if you're playing 50-60% of the game, but are still putting in a seriously high hour count, again, that is a good thing. People playing the game is a good thing.

Regarding the bold: They made it that way though and then cited players not finishing games as reason for the drastic differences in VII.
People playing the game is a good thing. People choosing to stop whenever they want to is a good thing (and something you can still do at any point).

That doesn't mean it's not a good thing to incentivise further playtime, or make it more rewarding for the player to put more time in. I don't get the need to paint it as unnecessary.

For the bold: nobody ever aims to make something tedious. Again, hindsight. It isn't future sight.
 
Ah man, this thread moves really quickly so I miss out on a lot of discussion.

If you want people to finish a game, then you need to improve the end of the game, so that it is thoroughly entertaining to the end, and not simply a dull grind, where the ending is known in perspective.
As others have said, it's not even strictly a problem. But if it was there are ways to fix it that do not include resetting the player and forcing them to change their game throughout.
Let me say that could technically work in some type of strategy games, for example, playing multiple Football matches includes 'Resetting the score' at each match.
Though the fix doesn't work with Civilization because it's commonly understood amongst critics that it interrupts the flow of the game. You're still technically playing the same 'match' when you reset.
You're supposed to feel like you're building to a climatic Modern Era, but this is not the case, because the progress is interrupted and the identity gets swapped.

It's sort of like playing a Football match as England vs France. You're 3:1. Then halfway, you switch to America vs Spain, and the score is changed to 2:2. Then let's say it becomes 4:3 in the second match.
At the third match you get reset to 3:3. And when you win the third match as an entirely different team from the team you started with, then the feeling is hollow and the progress feels weirdly artificial and abrupt.
This is how I feel about it but perhaps others can see it differently.

It never made sense to play as Canada from start to finish. But when you win at the end, you're saying "Well I took Canada from start to finish, that's my team and I built them up and won fair and square."
This sort of simplistic logic resonated more with common players than the system that we got in the end with Civilization VII.


Back to the original topic: improving the end game and the difficulty of opponents.
We've highlighted the (supposed) issue - the end of the game is boring and obvious who will win.
The solution is improving the stakes in the end of the game. I don't need to present the Civilization V Ideology system because you're all aware how much I advocate for it.
If wielded correctly, I also believe the Global Warming system could be used for this reason. Also, a Global Pandemic at the end of the game could work.

The 'Crisis' as a concept is not strictly a bad idea. If turned into an end-game exclusive event, this would change up the end-game every time and create something to look forward to for most players.
Imagine reaching the end of the game and having a City State turn into a Rogue Dictatorship.
Or as occasionally mentioned: global pandemics, global warming, international political disputes, ideology disputes, cyber warfare (Internet misinformation), nuclear warfare, space races and so on.

About the opponents. If they were almost the same difficulty as human players, we wouldn't even really need to have this discussion.
Various strategy games have tense gameplay throughout, as long as you're actually playing a competent opponent of similar skill, or a competent AI of similar skill.
End of story on that front. It needs work.

The idea that the Modern age is boring is really flawed - the times we live in now are some of the most rapidly evolving turbulent times in History.
In contrast, Civilization Modern Age is commonly a flat and unchanging type of gameplay.
We need to aim squarely at adding wildcards to the end of the game, and even improving the capacity for losing players to 'steal' a Victory.
 
If you want people to finish a game, then you need to improve the end of the game, so that it is thoroughly entertaining to the end, and not simply a dull grind, where the ending is known in perspective.
I agree. This is part of what the devs were trying to tackle.
But if it was there are ways to fix it that do not include resetting the player and forcing them to change their game throughout.
I have no doubt there's more than one potential solution. What's yours?
 
I have no doubt there's more than one potential solution. What's yours?
Actually I don't think there is a good solution to make the late game great, but there are many small steps you can take to make it less bad. Honestly they did a lot of things to improve the late game boredom via reduced micromanagement in the late game.

Where things went wrong is that they raised the stakes significantly with Civ Switching. If you are going to lock content to 1/3 of the game, that 1/3 of the game needs to be as good as the rest. I suspect that's an impossible task for anyone, let alone Firaxis post-release with their feet held over the coals. Ironically Humankind, with its barebones civs might have avoided this particular pitfall by being less refined... You certainly feel like you're missing out on less in that game.

They then made things far worse again with legacy paths - which in modern just turn things into a single-minded race where you don't even use what's unique to your civ.

So, I think Firaxis need to take the pressure off by introducing some mechanism to let Civs be played out of age. Civ switching can still be an option, but they lost the bet they took and need to adapt. I doubt they are going to make modern good, so at this point they need to not lock content to it.

And then I suspect legacy paths need a big rework - I honestly think this is where they should have copied Humankind's homework and had generic but varied ways to progress each age, and ending the game based on overall performance. The final age needs to be played out to completion.

It wouldn't be a perfect end game, it won't have solved the snowballing or "decisions not mattering" issues the devs hoped for, but I suspect putting out the active fires is the place to start. Then look at adding more ways to help the AI keep up with the player, and reduce micromanagement to continue making modern as good as it is able to be within the framework of Civ7.
 
If you're playing a single player game against AI and stop playing half way through the game because you've decided you've already won, then that's an issue.
No, it isnt

Its the same as enemies resigning in the Multiplayer example, only the AI cant make that decision, so you make it for them

You played better, you won, the AI cant/wont resign, so you resign them instead
 
I think a little too much focus gets placed on trying something new. Most accept that execution was poor. Not enough emphasis on (1) poorly choosing from the beta testing of features in Civ 6 (dramatic ages were terrible and yet thats what defines 7? whereas the secret societies were great but don't seem to have been implemented) and (2) not learning lessons from 6. I am watching Sullla play thru 7 and by the middle of exploration he is forced to make a million inconsequential building decisions while the deity AI is pathetically behind him. This is exactly the point in 6 I reached so many times where the game utterly falls apart and is not worth playing.
 
So I don't enjoy much about modern. I rarely finish games. In fact I have a game right now in modern that I'm going to finish, but I want all the legacy paths for leader experience so it's a slog. I haven't played it in three days.

What would get me interested in completing more games is the detailed recap we had in older civ games. I loved watching the map change, seeing how other civs' wars went, check out who got which wonders and when, graphs of yields, settlements, military power, great works, etc through the years. Of course also a local high score board, perhaps a global score board? We could see how we stack up against other players worldwide, including by total number of turns the way GOTM is played here on CFC.

I would absolutely love it if they reintroduced a proper score system that takes things into account other than legacy points. This would make leaderboards so much better. Legacy points should no doubt offer a good amount of score, but so should many other objectives. Then you get even cooler graphs to check out. This would also enable something that I think many people would enjoy - a true score victory. An ability to turn off every victory type except score would be fun. Maybe even turn off legacy paths entirely?
 
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So I don't enjoy much about modern. I rarely finish games. In fact I have a game right now in modern that I'm going to finish, but I want all the legacy paths for leader experience so it's a slog. I haven't played it in three days.

What would get me interested in completing more games is the detailed recap we had in older civ games. I loved watching the map change, seeing how other civs' wars went, check out who got which wonders and when, graphs of yields, settlements, military power, great works, etc through the years. Of course also a local high score board, perhaps a global score board? We could see how we stack up against other players worldwide, including by total number of turns the way GOTM is played here on CFC.

I would absolutely love it if they reintroduced a proper score system that takes things into account other than legacy points. This would make leaderboards so much better. Legacy points should no doubt offer a good amount of score, but so should many other objectives. Then you get even cooler graphs to check out. This would also enable something that I think many people would enjoy - a true score victory. An ability to turn off every victory type except score would be fun. Maybe even turn off legacy paths entirely?
The recap/replay/graphs….even the throne room/palace.

If they want you to “build something you believe in”, then they ought to allow you to fully see the thing that you built.

That is probably the thing that is the biggest disappointment…a “victory screen” that is best referred to in scatalogical terms.
 
The recap/replay/graphs….even the throne room/palace.

If they want you to “build something you believe in”, then they ought to allow you to fully see the thing that you built.

That is probably the thing that is the biggest disappointment…a “victory screen” that is best referred to in scatalogical terms.

Yes I would also love to see the return of the palace or throne room.
 
I don't relate to the complaints about Modern Age. I think it's interesting having my earlier plans fall into place towards a victory condition. The land grabs translate into resources for Economic Victory, with some luck - or, failing that, the diplomatic relations I cultivated translate into trade routes and getting the resources I want. The yields built up from before, of course, translate into strong tech or civic research. And even though I'm not generally interested in micromanaging wars at this stage, building up an air force to bomb errant AIs into submission without invading them is also great.

The only thing I agree with is the Modern civs not having much of an impact, with obvious exceptions like Meiji Japan. But still, I find the powerful things about them (like Mountain Power Station) just fun to use.

Yeah, you're probably quite certain you'll win, but it's like a victory lap and it feels like a reward for a game well-played. Not sure why people don't enjoy it more.
 
Uhm, sorry but this makes no sense.

With snowballing, you can win at turn 75. Without snowballing, you can win at turn 175. Why would it be any better to win late than early? Is it important to play long games by winning very late?

The goal should not be to prolong games. The goal should be to make victories easier and quicker to achieve.
I. . . don't agree, with civ specifically. The goal should be that you're playing through history, not pushing through for an optimal, fast, artificial VC . An opinion, I know, but it's kind of the point of the franchise.To get that, you need to have some reason to want to do those late game activities.
 
This is easy. Just hire Soren Johnsson and his team to work on AI. In no time, you have an AI that decimates poor players.

However, better AI is not going to solve late game boredom. Firaxis correctly determined that late game decisions are inconsequential. Build this, build that, who cares, it is the same over and over. Old World suffers from the same late game fatigue if you drag it too long. Large maps increase fatigue level, which is probably the reason why they were not included in the Civ 7 release. They just had to give it up because players wanted it, probably because exploring a huge map is so much fun. Again, it is easy to see why the 2nd age was themed for colonization. I have to give Ed Beach and his team credit for trying, but they didnt find a winning formula yet. It is possible it doesn't exist.
While I agree that the late game tends to be more tedious because, well, most of the important decisions have already been made and you’ve essentially already won—just passing turns to make it official with a victory video—I still think there are ways to make it more engaging, and we’ve already seen examples of that within the franchise.

In Civ5, for instance, ideologies were something that truly changed the late game. Through them, you could even trigger revolts in other civilizations by exerting ideological cultural influence. That was really fun, at least for me, because it kept my interest from dropping too much during the end game. Major revolutions that could shake up global geopolitics through ideological conflicts would make for an interesting late-game plot twist.

For that to happen, though, they’d need to deepen the current ideology mechanics quite a bit, and I’m not sure they’re willing to do that. The late game in Civ6 was also pretty bad, and there were many requests for the devs to improve it. Thinking it was a good idea, they added an utterly unbalanced global warming system that made the late game even worse. I’m afraid that, in trying to fix it, they might make the same mistake again, adding yet another dull, unbalanced mechanic.
 
I. . . don't agree, with civ specifically. The goal should be that you're playing through history, not pushing through for an optimal, fast, artificial VC . An opinion, I know, but it's kind of the point of the franchise.To get that, you need to have some reason to want to do those late game activities.
Yeah, the alt. History element is one of my favourite elements of the civ series. I don't think Civ7 gets good marks here though either. It models a very prescriptove flow through history where you are pushed to play your empire in specific ways at each stage. Then you throw Civ switching as an extra layer of disconnect. Though the era resets are pretty disjointed without that. I don't mind leader and civ mixing but I understand why some people find that is also a net negative.

I just don't find I feel like I have control over history. Antiquity has pretty generic objective and leaves things the most open, but the narrative drops once you enter the prescriptive gameplay of exploration and have to switch your Civ.
 
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