Player's Guide to Complex Traits

[JosEPh_II]

Well those would have stronger effect, if you build them all in city with highest base gold output preferably a capital.
Wonder gold modifier is listed separately from buildings, civics, traits and resources.
You can hover over gold in top left in city screen.

As for +crime gold giving buildings AI has stronger discount on units compared to discount on buildings, so it shouldn't be that hard to build few more property control units.
Also crime is less dependent on population for AI than for player.

Trade produces commerce, that can be converted to gold too - that its potential source of gold.

The AI will build those building for the Criminals too. Why because the Criminals are 1.5 x stronger than their corresponding LE units. In fact many Criminal units are equivalent to same level regular Military units or stronger. And the AI will over do it to the point off having escalating Crime levels which opens up even more Bad stuff for the AI. T-brd has addressed some of this, somewhat. The Player if they have can build more LEs to compensate. The AI still lags in this area because the Str of the Criminal units produced overrides the "penalties" from escalating crime levels.

And as for AI reliance on Pop even at Noble level it's still significant factor to the AI. Don't discount it's effects.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well, you're seeing the issue I was talking about with gold at least. The upkeep is greatly diminished by Organized, quite effectively I'm sure, but it still isn't the whole issue. You'd have nearly what you have now if you didn't have anything affecting your upkeep from traits - it's gotten that lax and I can say that from seeing an AI playthrough recently that didn't have the gold benefits from organized but showed far too much ease with gold in general. We'll see how Rax's adjustments change things but I think we'll have to do more through civics or more sweeping building upkeeps, but that's a tough road without making buildings too undesirable for the AI.

This was my per turn before I updated and did Re-Calc with raxxo's changes. It went down to 1600+ . Dropped about 600 /turn.

 

[Thunderbrd]

This was my per turn before I updated and did Re-Calc with raxxo's changes. It went down to 1600+ . Dropped about 600 /turn.

Well... it's an improvement. But I still think only so much can be done through buildings.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Thunderbrd,
Do any of your new Traits deal with the modifier iTaxRateUnhappiness used in Civics? If they are then they are Greatly complicating the process of Civic balancing and reworking. And making the Civic display Not match the CivicInfos,xml modifier settings. I'm finding some weirdness going on with that Modifier of late. What is in the xml is Not being displayed that way in the Civics in game.

Also @ Team,
I know that some of you changed the Civic names. And also that someone alphabetized the CivicsIfos.xml. These 2 changes are making working with the CivicsInfos.xml harder. Please Do Not Alphabetize this xml. They were once listed in order of their appearance in the game. This Helped greatly in working with the Civics in each category.

Also the New Names are confusing imhpo and should've stayed the way they were. Separated is not as informative as Separation of Powers.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Do any of your new Traits deal with the modifier iTaxRateUnhappiness used in Civics?

No. I'm not familiar with that tag.

Also the New Names are confusing imhpo and should've stayed the way they were. Separated is not as informative as Separation of Powers.

I... have to agree.

 

[Toffer90]

Do any of your new Traits deal with the modifier iTaxRateUnhappiness used in Civics? If they are then they are Greatly complicating the process of Civic balancing and reworking. And making the Civic display Not match the CivicInfos,xml modifier settings. I'm finding some weirdness going on with that Modifier of late. What is in the xml is Not being displayed that way in the Civics in game.

I've familiarized myself with the tag while working on the MToS modmod.

100 / iTaxRateUnhappiness = TaxRateThatGivesOneUnhappiness

A value of iTaxRateUnhappiness=2 would mean that you get 1 unhappiness in all cities per 50% tax up to a maximum of 2 Unhappiness.
A value of iTaxRateUnhappiness=4 would mean that you get 1 unhappiness in all cities per 25% tax up to a maximum of 4 Unhappiness.
A value of iTaxRateUnhappiness=5 would mean that you get 1 unhappiness in all cities per 20% tax up to a maximum of 5 Unhappiness.
A value of iTaxRateUnhappiness=20 would mean that you get 1 unhappiness in all cities per 5% tax up to a maximum of 20 Unhappiness.
A value of iTaxRateUnhappiness=100 would mean that you get 1 unhappiness in all cities per 1% tax up to a maximum of 100 Unhappiness.

So you see, the value you set the tag to equals how much unhappiness that can potentially be gained through increasing taxes.

The civic screen displays it like this:

Extra in all cities per 50% tax rate
Extra in all cities per 25% tax rate
Extra in all cities per 20% tax rate
Extra in all cities per 5% tax rate
Extra in all cities per 1% tax rate​

 

[JosEPh_II]

I've familiarized myself with the tag while working on the MToS modmod.

100 / iTaxRateUnhappiness = TaxRateThatGivesOneUnhappiness

A value of iTaxRateUnhappiness=2 would mean that you get 1 unhappiness in all cities per 50% tax up to a maximum of 2 Unhappiness.
A value of iTaxRateUnhappiness=4 would mean that you get 1 unhappiness in all cities per 25% tax up to a maximum of 4 Unhappiness.
A value of iTaxRateUnhappiness=5 would mean that you get 1 unhappiness in all cities per 20% tax up to a maximum of 5 Unhappiness.
A value of iTaxRateUnhappiness=20 would mean that you get 1 unhappiness in all cities per 5% tax up to a maximum of 20 Unhappiness.
A value of iTaxRateUnhappiness=100 would mean that you get 1 unhappiness in all cities per 1% tax up to a maximum of 100 Unhappiness.

So you see, the value you set the tag to equals how much unhappiness that can potentially be gained through increasing taxes.

The civic screen displays it like this:

Extra in all cities per 50% tax rate
Extra in all cities per 25% tax rate
Extra in all cities per 20% tax rate
Extra in all cities per 5% tax rate
Extra in all cities per 1% tax rate​

Thank You Toffer!!! This clears it up on why it was not working how I Thought it Should. No wonder my value of 33 was giving a rate of 1 for every 5% tax rate change! Yikes!

So if I want the rate to be 1 for every 30% tax rate change the value should be = 3? Or does the game "adjust it" to a value of 2 or 4? Would a value = 3 be allowed?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Thank You Toffer!!! This clears it up on why it was not working how I Thought it Should. No wonder my value of 33 was giving a rate of 1 for every 5% tax rate change! Yikes!

So if I want the rate to be 1 for every 30% tax rate change the value should be = 3? Or does the game "adjust it" to a value of 2 or 4? Would a value = 3 be allowed?

Looks to me that 3 would be 33.33% repeating. I'm guessing.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Looks to me that 3 would be 33.33% repeating. I'm guessing.

Yeah, and of course the game would round it down to 33%. That is what I had in mind but flipped the values and stuck the 33 into the "value" instead of 3.

So this clears up a spot I thought might be involved with the Complex traits changes to Civics.

Your Complex Traits Do have effects upon various Civics right? If I read them right. This does complicate the balancing of the Civics while using Complex traits. I may have to just use base Leader traits for Civic adjustments and balancing. Then If you see that some of your values are doing too much or too little you can adjust your trait values. I'm not going to go thru them (Complex Traits files) at all to make base game adjustments. That would be backwards.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, and of course the game would round it down to 33%. That is what I had in mind but flipped the values and stuck the 33 into the "value" instead of 3.

So this clears up a spot I thought might be involved with the Complex traits changes to Civics.

Your Complex Traits Do have effects upon various Civics right? If I read them right. This does complicate the balancing of the Civics while using Complex traits. I may have to just use base Leader traits for Civic adjustments and balancing. Then If you see that some of your values are doing too much or too little you can adjust your trait values. I'm not going to go thru them (Complex Traits files) at all to make base game adjustments. That would be backwards.

Complex Traits do not specifically alter or adjust anything about any civics. There are some interactive factors, probably most noteworthy being the effect of allowing or disallowing alternative religious buildings when playing with Religious Disabling. Certain Civics do this but so do traits and 2 sources of the same effect have a more severe effect in this case, which is really the only thing that leads to a specific trait/civic interaction point. I don't think you should have to worry too much about that. No trait specifically calls to a civic define for an adjustment to that civic or an adjustment due to that civic.

If you are concerned about the balance factor, then the rule of thumb, imo, should be to design civics without traits in consideration at all and then let the traits play in however they do naturally. If we find a trait seems out of balance, due to the design of the underlying valuation system on traits, in many cases the imbalance is in how we are working with the factors that trait is about rather than the trait itself.

For example, if gold isn't challenging, a gold boosting trait isn't going to have any value. This does not mean the trait should be adjusted because the value of gold is the same as any other commerce. The problem it reveals is that we have devalued gold AS a commerce in comparison to the other 3. Now, this isn't ALWAYS the case that there isn't a balance problem on the trait due to a mis-assignment of value on a given factor in that trait. But if that's what we determine, then it should adjust the valuation as it applies to all traits that use that tag as well and inspire other balance changes to account for that shift in fundamental defined value on that tag.

Anyhow, the point here is that you should probably look at the game without traits simply for sanity if you're looking to balance the civics. Sure, some civics will work better with some traits, with some natural synergistic benefits arising from those combinations, and the opposite can be true as well where some civics don't work great for some traits. Some civics will counteract some trait penalties and some trait benefits may counteract some civic penalties... these kinds of things are to be expected, just like what can happen with civic selections from various categories as well.

Traits should be gentle enough that the game can accommodate any combinations in general. If you have a lot of gold and you have taken traits to have that result, you can't really complain about a glut of gold. But if you don't have any player specific reasons to have a lot of gold, or not enough to warrant what you're getting, there's probably an issue with balance still.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Anyhow, the point here is that you should probably look at the game without traits simply for sanity if you're looking to balance the civics.

Yes you are right on this of course. I should stay away from Traits of any kind until I can get a Game into the Industrial Era.

Just up thru Agriculture there are 13 Civic choices a player can make by reaching that Tech. With Community, Caste, and Mining coming up quickly. Rapid and significant changes from Tribalism to Mining.in the case of Civic choices.

 

[ssmage]

I've been seeing the AI spam building 1000 police/500 bards/400 apos and putting them all in one city again. Because the other cities are so high in crime/disease/ low edu as well, it's just repeating this forever until the game clogs with that many units. This was addressed a while ago, But I'm not sure if the AI can handle the changes from the new complex traits and just dies from it again.

Edit: Some of the other AI's have taken the +crime traits as well, but it seems Alex in my game has taken 4 +crime traits and is bugged because of it, maybe?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I've been seeing the AI spam building 1000 police/500 bards/400 apos and putting them all in one city again. Because the other cities are so high in crime/disease/ low edu as well, it's just repeating this forever until the game clogs with that many units. This was addressed a while ago, But I'm not sure if the AI can handle the changes from the new complex traits and just dies from it again.

Edit: Some of the other AI's have taken the +crime traits as well, but it seems Alex in my game has taken 4 +crime traits and is bugged because of it, maybe?

Please Pretty please give the SVN version or Official version you are using when you give this type report. It is Essential and Imperative for the Team to know this information. Please.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I've been seeing the AI spam building 1000 police/500 bards/400 apos and putting them all in one city again. Because the other cities are so high in crime/disease/ low edu as well, it's just repeating this forever until the game clogs with that many units. This was addressed a while ago, But I'm not sure if the AI can handle the changes from the new complex traits and just dies from it again.

Edit: Some of the other AI's have taken the +crime traits as well, but it seems Alex in my game has taken 4 +crime traits and is bugged because of it, maybe?

I saw this earlier and forgot to comment...

This is largely a result of the xml values for measuring a proper response to properties being tampered with. I need to remember to set them all back to what they were when I last personally set them up by looking at the code in progress. Measurements on those values are not easily explained and are not simple dials like most xml or globals.

Another thing that causes this is a failure to be able to transport the needed units to the destination for which they were trained to fulfill needs for. That... that's just a problem that's going to sit for a bit because transport AI is as complex as a thing can get.

 

[MattCA]

just an idea - on turn have each city count the units with UnitTypes (or UnitAITypes idk) that have property manipulators. have a count for each property type.
If the count is over a certain number (idk what num, let's say 10 for example) remove a num of units from the game the same way size matters does to get the total num on city back to 10. Then replace any removed units with a simple specialist in the city.
If the count is below that number and the city has correct specialist, then remove specialist and remake Unit. (like size matters)
Im thinkin automatic switch instead of say a button that you click kinda like a buildup promotion, because I wouldn't want to mess around with AI.
even this way might screw up the AI too much.
I can add a numbers to cities so the players don't lose the minus property promos and stuff.

 

[Thunderbrd]

just an idea - on turn have each city count the units with UnitTypes (or UnitAITypes idk) that have property manipulators. have a count for each property type.
If the count is over a certain number (idk what num, let's say 10 for example) remove a num of units from the game the same way size matters does to get the total num on city back to 10. Then replace any removed units with a simple specialist in the city.
If the count is below that number and the city has correct specialist, then remove specialist and remake Unit. (like size matters)
Im thinkin automatic switch instead of say a button that you click kinda like a buildup promotion, because I wouldn't want to mess around with AI.
even this way might screw up the AI too much.
I can add a numbers to cities so the players don't lose the minus property promos and stuff.

That would likely create its own set of problems.

 

[VCrakeV]

While selecting a trait, the bottom of the tool tip sometimes has something like "(citizen icon) / +/- x disease/crime/education", where x is some number. I read this as "+/- x property per citizen specialist", but I think I'm wrong. What exactly does it mean?

 

[Thunderbrd]

While selecting a trait, the bottom of the tool tip sometimes has something like "(citizen icon) / +/- x disease/crime/education", where x is some number. I read this as "+/- x property per citizen specialist", but I think I'm wrong. What exactly does it mean?

+ Property type per x population. It's not 100% ideal but it does technically make mathematical sense. If you need a reference for a particular trait to get a better idea how to read those, check out the trait spreadsheets which are usually accurate to the statement as it is displayed.

 

[VCrakeV]

Any recommendations for traits to pair with Philosophical (negative and positive, Pure Traits on)? I was thinking of Greedy at first, since it boosts wonder production (which get a free specialist each from Philosophical), but decreases GPP, which conflicts with Philosophical. As for positive traits, I was thinking of some of the wonder, great people, and golden age related ones, but I'm not sure which to pick among them (more great people means more golden ages).

 

[JosEPh_II]

Any recommendations for traits to pair with Philosophical (negative and positive, Pure Traits on)? I was thinking of Greedy at first, since it boosts wonder production (which get a free specialist each from Philosophical), but decreases GPP, which conflicts with Philosophical. As for positive traits, I was thinking of some of the wonder, great people, and golden age related ones, but I'm not sure which to pick among them (more great people means more golden ages).

All New Areas to figure out. And You are the guinea pig...er Tester!