Playing on Monarch... oooph

[Martinus]

I am an avid reader of Strategy forum and have been playing Civ4 and earlier Civs a lot, but so far mostly on Noble and Prince. Recently I decided to up the ante and switch to Monarch... and oooph I keep staying behind all the time. The only times when I manage to keep with the AIs, tech, wise, is when they show up on my border with stacks 2-3 times bigger than my army - otherwise, if I build a decent military, I keep staying behind in techs.

I am more of a builder type, and prefer SE to CE, but played various configurations. I know it is hard to give a general advice, but it would be great if some of you guys gave some tips about how you normally play your game beyond the first 2-3 cities (I think I have the initial expansion covered pretty well, it's beyond that when my economy starts to sink).

 

[mrchadt]

I am no expert but I am comfortable playing on monarch. After at about 4-6 cities I want to have currency or CoL, an extra trade route in each city makes a difference as do courthouses. I do find it difficult to play without a single cottage if there isn't much gold or other money resources available, unless I have the pyramids, which are very good for tech with SE. Try to grow your cities to the happy cap, monarchy is good for getting bigger cities. I hope this is not too vague.

 

[Martinus]

No, it's fine, thanks. I think my problem is that I really have an aversion to whipping (not any ideological or anything, just that I hate seeing my cities' population going down) and from what I read here, whipping early and often is usually the best strategy during the early development.

 

[MangleMeElmo]

Well, I'm a warmonger, so I can tell you that if you choose to build a large army, the only way to stay ahead in techs is to use that army. You get a lot of gold from capturing cities, so use that as the basis for your research for the early game. On Monarch, libraries are essential. They boost your science a lot if you assign scientists immediately, and you'll generate Great Scientists which you can use to lightbulb techs. I often like to whip up libraries ASAP and use those scientists for my early research, then transition more towards cottages as the game progresses.

Also, you must do a lot of tech trading, at least a lot more than on lower levels. That is the only way you'll be able to keep pace with the AI. Make at least one good friend and use that AI as a trading partner and war comrade for the whole game.

If you prefer to build, I would say you should either REX or go for an early war anyway if you have copper or iron. Even though you might prefer peaceful victories, you still need more land than most of the other civs. You need at least 9 cities for Cultural and at least 15 for Space Race. Diplomatic victory is only viable in certain circumstances. The more land you have, the better you'll be.

Try to get your hands on a shrine and spread that religion around, this is great for funding large armies or for pulling ahead in techs. Wait to see what the other civs on your continent are worshipping before you convert to anything. The more friends you have, the more tech trading options you have and the easier it will be to keep up with the AI and its ridiculous bonuses. Try to be the first to discover Alphabet and hold on to that advantage for as long as you can. Watch all parts of your diplomacy advisor's screen closely throughout the entire game to see new trading opportunities as soon as they present themselves. Well, that's all I can think of for now. Hope this helps.

EDIT: Remember that expansion is more important than size in the early game. Use that whip for infrastructure and protection.

 

[mrchadt]

When whipping try to whip for 2 population when there are 31-40 hammers to go so you get an overflow. Also whip workers or settlers when they are 1 turn from completion, this gives good overflow. Over flow makes 1food=2hammers (about) with a granary.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I've just completed and submitted to HOF my first ever Monarch win! Yay! Got domination on a standard size fractal map with Ragnar, he's pretty good I discovered (financial and a nice UU and UB to boot).

What helped me make this game go better than usual was a devestating axe rush against Tokugowa early on, then attacked Hannibal (bribed Freddy to help), then backstabbed Freddy. Once the continent was mine and not enough land for domination I had to do a naval invasion of Spain, on the other continent. Just as I vassalized Izzy and was about to win Napoleon took the city that would give me my domination limit off me on the same turn it came out of revolt, so my win was delayed by a good 10-15 turns, 1820AD eventually.

So my advice is a good axe rush early on and stay on the offensive. Wonder wise I had Pyramids, Oracle, Great Lighthouse (just a bonus really), Great Library. Ran representation most of the game except when I was finishing off Freddy when I had to switch to police state to control war weariness. Got lots of Engineers instead of scientists but still won liberalism race (other continent was too war minded I think), used an engineer on West Point and Taj Mahal (cavalry soon after getting liberalism thanks to the golden age).

So stick with it, you'll get a win soon enough if you read the advice on this forum.

 

[Ruler]

I've been playing on Monarch quite a while now I have a lot of fun I try sometimes Emperor but it's not fun. Win on Monarch is easy once you get a hang of it and it let you make some mistakes unlike Emperor or Immortal.

My first cities are, gp farm, capital hydrid basically what you get from the start and military city usually my second city, if i get boxed after second or third city I make an army asap whip/chop if I have to, but if I don't get boxed it's pretty comfortable to increase your cities by 2 but be ready to send your worker to make cottages as you found a new city immediately it's pretty crucial in my opinion and let fourth and fifth city grow by cottages. After that you definitely need CoL or more gold somehow from shrines, great person etc.

 

[madscientist]

I've just completed and submitted to HOF my first ever Monarch win! Yay! Got domination on a standard size fractal map with Ragnar, he's pretty good I discovered (financial and a nice UU and UB to boot).

What helped me make this game go better than usual was a devestating axe rush against Tokugowa early on, then attacked Hannibal (bribed Freddy to help), then backstabbed Freddy. Once the continent was mine and not enough land for domination I had to do a naval invasion of Spain, on the other continent. Just as I vassalized Izzy and was about to win Napoleon took the city that would give me my domination limit off me on the same turn it came out of revolt, so my win was delayed by a good 10-15 turns, 1820AD eventually.

So my advice is a good axe rush early on and stay on the offensive. Wonder wise I had Pyramids, Oracle, Great Lighthouse (just a bonus really), Great Library. Ran representation most of the game except when I was finishing off Freddy when I had to switch to police state to control war weariness. Got lots of Engineers instead of scientists but still won liberalism race (other continent was too war minded I think), used an engineer on West Point and Taj Mahal (cavalry soon after getting liberalism thanks to the golden age).

So stick with it, you'll get a win soon enough if you read the advice on this forum.

Paradign, My only warlords Monarch vistory was also with Ragnar!!! The great lighthouse was extremely huge in my game after popping sailing early I built all my cities on the coast. The Great library helped to a lesser extent, those were my only wonders until the space elevator. A random map produced 2 contanents, in which case I took out Ghengis and churchill on mine while I watched the 8 civs on the other one try and kill each other.

Perhaps his Financial/agressive traits help with the increase in level from Prince to monarch.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I know, I was reading your thread just the other day thinking "I'll get my first win soon" and then random leaders popped up Ragnar, I knew it was a good omen. Standard map normal speed for me so only 7 civs including myself.

I normally play an SE style game but cottaged quite a bit with Ragsy (nothing too excessive though, my production [West Point & Heroic Epic (EDIT - had National Epic by mistake there)] city had all farms, my capital had 3 cottages I think, others had cottages where I saw fit).

The trading post is great because of the extra trade route (add harbours to get 50% extra yield too), and with the Great Lighthouse it made the early game tech speed fast indeed. I still had my science slider at 30-40% most of the game though (so many cities after my early rush and constant warring, I didn't raze any cities which is a rarity for me). Went for domination as soon as I saw Toku and Hannibal easy targets (good idea to nip Hannibal in the bud early too before he becomes a tech monster). Hannibal had no horses either which certainly helped, neither did Freddy once I liberated his city on my patch. Sold him military tradition before declaring war on him for the last time, after I got rid of his horses! Lollers.

The other continent was all war mongers, Izzy, Napoleon and Monty, stuck in the stone age (well Napoleon was quite advanced but only really invaded me at the end and he razed a city instead of keeping it on the last turn of the game - maybe that one tile would have prevented me from winning?

The early axe rush was definitely the difference between being hemmed in and going on a rampage to a domination win. Fallen in love with Pyramids again after deciding they weren't worth the hammers previously (Monty's stacks of early doom put me off for a while)... I make sure I get 2 settlers out the capital before I start building it though (grow to pop 4 and whip a settler twice first). Bribing Freddy (who was the leader in terms of score and power) to attack Hannibal as I was taking his capital then doing a backstab of quite cynical proportions was a fine plan too.

EDIT: Another thing I did which I don't normally do is build the Heroic Epic ASAP in my military production centre, when the axes were attacking Toku and eyeing up Hannibal. It made such a big difference. Normally I delay building this until after I have finished my first war (just pumping out units until then), but the +100% production made a such massive difference to the rest of the game. I'd certainly recommend building it sooner rather than later now and not wait until in the middle of a peace treaty.

 

[madscientist]

The trading post is great because of the extra trade route (add harbours to get 50% extra yield too), .

The trading post gives new ship free navigation promotion, not an extra trade route. The Carthaginian Cothon (Harbor) gives and extra trade route.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Well the +1 movement was good anyway! Don't know where I got the idea it would give an extra trade route, never even played as Carthage!

Amazingly I managed to win the circumnavigation race with 1 caravel (which didn't even have the navigation promotion lollers) about 100 years after Napoleon turned up in his [EDIT: I think Napoleon just sailed round our continent rather than going for the bonus, idiot]. It was a weird game alright, not complaining though. I only used boats right at the end to go intercontinental on poor Izzy (she is always the whipping girl in my games it seems).

EDIT2: Another good thing in this game as I mentioned earlier was the Golden Age from Taj Mahal after taking Nationalism with Liberalism. I had loads of cities by then, and a Great Engineer knocking around. I was a bit surprised to see the engineer would fully build the Taj. So that was a 1 GP golden age (like in BtS eh?). During the golden age I got universities up in 6+ cities so I could build Oxford soon after, and teched Music, Gunpowder and most of Military Tradition, so I had cavalry in 1350 or something like that. Freddy still got rifles after my first devestating backstabbing attack (took 3 cities off him, weakened his standing army big time though - killed all his Knights basically with cavalry and elephants). One of the cities flipped back to him too. That was Freddy effectively finished then (he didn't think so of course), especially since I pillaged his horses and kept an eye on whether he would hook them up again with my caravel. My CR3 berserkers became grenadiers and it was RIP Freddo. I got steel just as I was finishing him off but I had 10 catapults which never even needed to attack, all I needed to do was bombard the city to 0% and then the grenadiers took over and cavalry finished off any stragglers.

 

[TriviAl]

Find monarch fine myself. Although emperor is a bit hit and miss sometimes.

Here's a rambling post:

Workers. Lots of workers.

I like a hybrid economy myself. Early on, mostly SE, but get a river city or two pushing some cottages. Pays off in the mid-long term. Doubly so for financial leaders.

My main thing would be not to overexpand before code of laws. Find courthouses make a huge difference to my economics. Currency and markets can leverage nicely off the Cottaged cities as well.

If peaceful/enough space, I tend to shoot for a max of 4-5 decent cities before that point on a normal map. If there's need for an axe rush, I'll keep it small, but try to kill my victim... There's some slack in this depending on civ/resources/maps. Cash resources can often fund a slightly bigger expansion. I love those 3-4 gem sites you occasionally find.

If that is the case, then a couple of high production cities is a very good thing. So you can crank up for a small war if wanted.

If it's a busy continent/pangea, I like to steer clear of state religion. Find the bonuses are outweighed by annoying the neighbours. Quite often go the whole game without ever having a state religion. Although encoraging religion rocks. Shrines ftw. You can be everyones neutral party - with a bit of caving and grovelling, they'll leave you alone until you've got the pointy sticks ready?

Lightbulbing and settled GPs. So good!

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I agree about the religion thing. Unless you are next to Izzy and want an easy early war that you don't have to start yourself

In my game I only committed to Fred's religion, Christianity, to get him to friendly to declare on Hannibal when I did, it only cost me 270 gold too, a bargain. It was him who I was weakening by letting Hannibal pillage him for a bit before my big backstab. He was still Cautious after the war ended, and wanted open borders just before I declared on him the second time. Never trust a viking!

 

[madscientist]

I agree about the religion thing. Unless you are next to Izzy and want an easy early war that you don't have to start yourself

In my game I only committed to Fred's religion, Christianity, to get him to friendly to declare on Hannibal when I did, it only cost me 270 gold too, a bargain. It was him who I was weakening by letting Hannibal pillage him for a bit before my big backstab. He was still Cautious after the war ended, and wanted open borders just before I declared on him the second time. Never trust a viking!

In my game, not suprising, neither ghengis, churchill or myself founded anything until I bulbed Philosphy. Then everyone were friendly towards each. Made my massive attacks against those AIs very successful as they had a rather small military (small for what I would expect from those 2).

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I missed confucianism in my game (Hannibal got it), got Taoism from lightbulbing philosophy (also much later than normal on this level). I didn't change to that as my religion though, didn't want any surprise attacks while I was taking on Hannibal. Fred was confucian until he discovered Christianity, then he converted and that was my chance to kill 2 birds with one stone, change to Christianity and Fred & I vs. heathen Hannibal. Result!

It was the best bit of diplo manipulation I have done so far in civ. Even better than my almost win at Emperor level on my first attempt (trying this months major gauntlet - domination with Wang on Emperor), had no chance for domination but everyone liked me so I went all out for the UN, then stupidly traded with someones worst enemy just before the vote I was about to win. Then Huayna luanched his ship, but at least I survived till the end on Emperor! I've not won diplo yet.

 

[madscientist]

I missed confucianism in my game (Hannibal got it), got Taoism from lightbulbing philosophy (also much later than normal on this level). I didn't change to that as my religion though, didn't want any surprise attacks while I was taking on Hannibal. Fred was confucian until he discovered Christianity, then he converted and that was my chance to kill 2 birds with one stone, change to Christianity and Fred & I vs. heathen Hannibal. Result!

It was the best bit of diplo manipulation I have done so far in civ. Even better than my almost win at Emperor level on my first attempt (trying this months major gauntlet - domination with Wang on Emperor), had no chance for domination but everyone liked me so I went all out for the UN, then stupidly traded with someones worst enemy just before the vote I was about to win. Then Huayna luanched his ship, but at least I survived till the end on Emperor! I've not won diplo yet.

I have gotten alot of diplo victories on Prince/marathon/huge games. Best was playing as Ghandi on a Pange map with ALOT of the war maniacs (Cathy, Al, JC, Ragnar, Mehmed, Toku, Fred, Ghengis). Never had a state religion and was able to bribe everyone into declaring war on each other, except Ragnar who I took out myself. First to industrialism and starting a new form of diplomacy with tanks . Finally got enough Vassal to elect me ruler of the world, a great game.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I think knuckling down for a diplo win is next on my to do list, I'd rather have a peaceful one than all my vassals voting for me though (I'd be disappointed I didn't get a domination win in that case I think).

The almost win was a failed attempt following futurehermits tips in the "Tips for Specialist Economy" thread (basically, expand as fast as poss, build Pyramids and Great Library, tech to cavalry by running tons of scientists and then stomp on everyone, but have a small military up until then, keeping people happy by giving in to demands etc. which is different to the other style of SE which is war all the time and keep taking cities and razing them to keep the economy going), but every time I got a tech first my target (can't remeber who it was going to be... might have been Ragnar actually), they got the counter just before I was about to attack. <- Longest sentence ever.

So I leveraged my popularity and the fact that the AI wasn't beelining to mass media to build the UN, most of the AIs were +8 or above except the #1 in population (I think it was Mehmed, and he wasn't well liked). Cruised the sec general election, needed a few more positive modifiers to get people to vote for me for the win, managed to get them all pleased or friendly and disliking Mehmed, then 2 bad things happened... I traded with someones worst enemy for something I didn't even need, and someone else decided to change civics to state property cancelling out a big positive modifier I was getting by running free market to get on his good side. Then my spies weren't good enough at pillaging without getting caught.

 

[madscientist]

No vassals is more difficult but some obervations I have made.

1) Adopt as many civics that make the most people happy. Run vassalage if you have to keep Cyrus and Mehmed happy. And do not ruin it with a UN vote to switch all to free specch.
2) Find your best UN opponent early on and try to get them in a good military situation to be top dog in population.
3) Keep track of religion. Some will never switch to free religion even though most of your friends did.
4) Your friends vassals (not your UN adversary) can still vote for you, so don't push them arround with arrogant demands.
5) Help the needy, unless they are hated by your friends.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Yeah, the civics thing was what was making everyone hapy with me. Luckily people had the same favourites or they were in different categories. I just wasn't expecting the switch to state property at all and I need to remind myself to check who likes who before doing any trade with anyone in a tense diplo finish. It was an exciting end game though, nailbiting stuff (until I blew it).

Gifting people techs and resources for no reason to get them to +4 is a good plan too.

Luckily I was the secretary general so all the votes I called were either "me to win!" or "no nukes, I'm miles behind here and don't want to be surprised", or something good for everyone like an extra trade route.

It made me see how you can still win a diplo victory despite being miles behind in power and tech as long as you can build the UN before anyone else and don't go aggravating people in the early game.