Please. Improve Jags.

[Atlas]

No there even less use there- humans arnt stupid enough to avoid hooking up copper etc.

Surely you jest! In Multiplayer these things are the ultimate for choking an opponent. A woodsman 2 Jag holds against axes they are impossible to get rid of.

 

[slightlymarxist]

But the starting locations are cooked up so that, if you don't have copper, you'll almost always have iron. Except on the "weird" map types.

I play Fractal mostly. So I guess that's "weird"

 

[Polycrates]

The swordsman is a unit that is very useful as a mainline city attacker right into the early-to-mid medieval period - well after any jag-rushing benefit - and then the Aztec player is at a big disadvantage without it.

Take unit cost into consideration people!

Jaguars are cheaper than any other swordsmen in terms of hammers. They are actually the 5th cheapest military unit in the game (only scouts, warriors, archers and chariots are cheaper).

It's only a small advantage, even less than the 1/8 pure hammer advantage, because of the interaction with pop-rushing. 35 hammers means you usually have to really micromanage (and lessen) first turn production to be able to whip away two people at once - whereas 40 is just enough that you aren't wasting any potential hammers. The overflow can still always go for a cheaper axeman or spearman. Particularly in Warlords, where you have the fantastic Sacrificial Altar to make poprushing a cornerstone of your military strategy. Ironically, the point where you get Altars is also pretty much exactly the point where Monty would massively dominate by churning out full-strength Aggressive swordsmen.


As far as improvements, adding a potential Woodsman III promo with a bonus to forest attack and withdrawal (like guerrilla III) would go a long way to making the jag interesting and useful as an irregular.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Ironically, the point where you get Altars is also pretty much exactly the point where Monty would massively dominate by churning out full-strength Aggressive swordsmen.

That's why they did NOT give them full-strength aggressive swordsmen.

Still, by the time courthouses come along, Jags and swordsman are already past their use. You should be using catapults or crossbows by then.

 

[Polycrates]

That's why they did NOT give them full-strength aggressive swordsmen.

Hmmmm dunno about that - too powerful to give a UU!
The jag came first, after all, and the swordsmen is just a normal unit. Not like we're talking something really obscene like Sacrificial Altar + Aggressive + Praetorian (I modded that in once just to try - my GOD)

Still, by the time courthouses come along, Jags and swordsman are already past their use. You should be using catapults or crossbows by then.

A CoL beeline (via the religious route for Monty of course) leaves you still a long way from construction and even longer from machinery.
In that period after the axe rush is plausible and before cats, built-up cities are near impossible to assail without the extra punch of swordsmen (and throwing a large amount of sacrificial swordsmen at them), and Monty would make serious assault in this period a plausible option.

Besides, you still need a good city raiding unit to smash down the units that the cats have weakened, and swords are ideal units for this role - generally much better than axes. They're useful right up to macemen and aren't even completely obsolete after that. They're also excellent defenders against anything that's not an axe, and even good defending against axes with a bit of terrain or promotion.

As it is, I almost never bother researching Iron Working as Monty because it would slow me down on CoL/construction. And it's damn sad because the jag just looks so ridiculously cool.

 

[kniteowl]

Here's an idea, since a defending axeman can stop a Jaguar Rush dead in it's tracks, instead of giving the Jaguar, increased strenght, why not give it 1-2 first strikes oppotunies, they'd basically be similar to Samurais but can be built in the ancient age and have a higher survival chance, and you'd only ahve to sacrifice on average 2 Jaguars to take down one defending axemen.

It might be overpowered, we won't know until it's tested though

 

[bassist2119]

As aforementioned, Jag's resourcelessness is a double-edged sword.

I'd like to see as they are, but at normal swordsman cost, and get +1 strength with iron (possibly +2 strength (7) with copper AND iron? It's still a lower strength than the praet... plus increases their window of opportunity)

 

[Giaur]

Double movement speed?

It would be really funny ...

edit: early explorers.