Please stop with the "what if" scenarios

LightSpectra

me autem minui
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
5,518
Location
Vendée
I give you three reasons why:

1. The Butterfly Effect. The smallest of forces have monumental effects. An oft used example of this: A gentleman stops to admire a butterfly, and because of that wasted moment, misses his bus; and thus, is late for his job interview; and thus, does not get the job, does not build up his career, does not eventually become chief physicist of MIT, does not discover cold fusion, American reliance on fossil fuels continues, nuclear war with Russia happens over oil, etc.

Now, given the great effects that a butterfly can have on the flow of events, changing something monumental like "what if the Roman Empire hadn't collapsed?" automatically makes it impossible to have any sort of coherent predictions about what is going to happen in the alternate future. Attempting to make any sort of guess is futile.


2. Alternate scenarios presume that not only what happened changes, but the factors that caused said event also change, and thus the situation is now incomprehensible. For instance, if you were to investigate the counterfactual scenario, "what if the Russians had fared better in the Great War?," then you have to assume that all the reasons the Russian Empire was not ready for war -- severe munitions shortages, dreadful personnel in the War Ministry and officer corps, internal corruption and insurrections -- were also different. But wait, we face a second problem now: how did these factors change? You have to reach back and make more changes as well: give Tsar Nicholas II the proper attitude towards ruling, give Vladimir Sukhomlinov a brain, remove the revolutionaries from the equation, and instill some sense of modernization within the Tsar's ministers.

You may have noticed, then, that this "what if" scenario is rather unlike the history we're familiar with. In order to make the change required for the counterfactual, you have to make countless secondary changes to make the first one possible, and therefore even more to make the secondary ones possible, Ad infinitum. You are no longer looking at the Russian Empire, and it no longer has any resemblance to historical events.


3. You can ususally disguise your "what if" proposal within more reasonable questions. Asking "what would have happened if the Confederacy won at Gettysburg?" is absurd, for the two reasons above. But, you can raise sensible points that (hopefully) would satisfy your urge for alternate histories. Instead, ask, "what was Lee's plan had he won at Gettysburg?," or "did the Army of Northern Virginia have enough supplies to go further North?," or anything similar. These can be answered.
 
Dude, this is like all the history forum is. I certainly don't trust the credibility of any more than a very few posters here on actual topics anyway, so this would be like taking all the fun/removing all interest in this forum.
 
For every serious "what if" thread, there're two "what if zheng he teamed with napoleon and hitler to establish a radioactive monkey paradise lololol" threads.

I don't mind hypotheticals so much, however, the stuff here is just ridiculous.
 
Here are my thoughts on the subject:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=294605

Seeing as the two subjects are so often intermixed here, should alternate history and real history threads be separated into different forums? I think this would be the best thing for the science and art of history, to segregate the real history from the alternate. Too many people think of History as being a giant "what if?" question, and that the job of Historians is to ask this question; this is not the case in reality. Historians ask the questions "why" and "how," not "what if." While it may be fun to ponder these things, and to ask the question "what if," the proper student of History never lets this venture beyond the realm of the reasonably predictable, and never forgets that History is a non-linear sequence of events, equally incapable of being predicted as it is of being simplified whilst retaining a reasonable degree of faithfulness to reality. While I have no love for Alternate History, I realize that many do, and that it may have its uses. This is why I propose we separate honest History from Alternate, and acknowledge the fundamental difference between the two.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=284849

What do you think would happen if a sudden epiphany overcame the world, and people realized that "what if?" is not the question historians ask? This can cover both WH forum, and real life.

Please explain your answer.
 
Dude, this is like all the history forum is. I certainly don't trust the credibility of any more than a very few posters here on actual topics anyway, so this would be like taking all the fun/removing all interest in this forum.

I'm not trying to stomp all over your fun because I'm a big meanie, though if you want to toss all reasonable standards out the window in order to engage in counterfactuals, there's no reason you can't do it in the Off-Topic forum.
 
I don't mind counter factual discussions as long as they remain within the boundaries of reasonable and minor changes to what happened followed by sensible conclusions about the way the world may have altered. History would strike me as rather boring if we restricted ourselves to not much more than academic discussions of what actually happened.

There is also a certain danger in the 2nd point whereby it almost assumes because things did happen that way they had to. Many historical events are not so clear cut that you would have to change the entire ethos of a government/people to alter the event.
 
I give you three reasons why:

1. The Butterfly Effect. The smallest of forces have monumental effects. An oft used example of this: A gentleman stops to admire a butterfly, and because of that wasted moment, misses his bus; and thus, is late for his job interview; and thus, does not get the job, does not build up his career, does not eventually become chief physicist of MIT, does not discover cold fusion, American reliance on fossil fuels continues, nuclear war with Russia happens over oil, etc.

Now, given the great effects that a butterfly can have on the flow of events, changing something monumental like "what if the Roman Empire hadn't collapsed?" automatically makes it impossible to have any sort of coherent predictions about what is going to happen in the alternate future. Attempting to make any sort of guess is futile.

This is debatable, with some philosophies wrt time-travel claiming the alternative, that an ordinary event would have negligible impact, or even that it would be impossible to significantly change events (at least in a manner that might lead to a paradox).
 
I don't mind counter factual discussions as long as they remain within the boundaries of reasonable and minor changes to what happened followed by sensible conclusions about the way the world may have altered. History would strike me as rather boring if we restricted ourselves to not much more than academic discussions of what actually happened.

This.
 
Be less of a reason to whine about WIs clogging up the board if people made more 'real' history threads.

Just sayin'
 
For every serious "what if" thread, there're two "what if zheng he teamed with napoleon and hitler to establish a radioactive monkey paradise lololol" threads.

I don't mind hypotheticals so much, however, the stuff here is just ridiculous.

Clearly, you haven't been here long enough to distinguish what is a serious 10-year-old and a jaded fellow taking the piss.

And clearly, something is wrong if people start taking piss-takes seriously. At least my compadres had some very funny insights in that thread before it closed. T'was the only time I was happy in WH for a long time.
 
History is not deterministic, but rather based on human decisions - whether individual or collective.Serious historians will take into account critical/pivotal decisions/factors when covering their subject (like MacCullough's recent A History of Christianity, which looks at early Christian developments, showing Christianity did not necessarily have to turn out the way it has). Some 'what if?' threads that have appeared recently lack a properly formulated hypothesis and, for this reason, rather belong in OT than in World History. (It might help if there were a historian/historically schooled moderator, but that is probably asking for too much.)
 
A simple solution to prevent being annoyed by 'what if' scenarios is to stop posting in them. If people want to participate in them, why shouldn't they? If you don't want to participate in them, well no-one is forcing you to.

3. You can ususally disguise your "what if" proposal within more reasonable questions. Asking "what would have happened if the Confederacy won at Gettysburg?" is absurd, for the two reasons above. But, you can raise sensible points that (hopefully) would satisfy your urge for alternate histories. Instead, ask, "what was Lee's plan had he won at Gettysburg?," or "did the Army of Northern Virginia have enough supplies to go further North?," or anything similar. These can be answered.

Shouldn't a poster be able to extrapolate the latter two questions from the former without the need for the OP of a thread to actually specifically state many varying questions that could perhaps be of value?
 
Some thoughts:

-There's 46 threads in the first page of World History -forum. "Fake History" is the last, and last post to it was made in 28th of December, that's almost a month ago. There's 17 threads to which someone has posted during last week. Of the 46 threads 6 are what if's, and one a parody. It doesn't seem like they are really clogging the forum.

-I have a habit of not reading threads that aren't interesting.

-I'm not that familiar with methodology of history, but anyway: To understand significance of some event, it's useful to ask what had happened if things had been different. For example, it's usually said that the battle of Marathon was important because if Persians had won, the Greek culture might never had bloomed like it did.

What if-questions can also reveal things people take for granted otherwise. Like here. First people say that Napoleon would have lost anyway, but Dachs points out that him loosing in Waterloo had some consequences.

-Question doesn't have to have unambiguous answer in order to be worth asking. Of course it's impossible to say what exactly would have happened, but why not speculate on what could have, and how probably?

-Being hostile to what iffers keeps people away from the history forum. People don't want to say anything here, because they are expecting to be beaten if they say something stupid. Some of you might think that it would be nice thing, but I can't agree with that. At least I'm very fond of the possibility for common people to speak casually about history, and perhaps to learn from someone who really knows something about it.
 
They are perfectly legit. This is not an academic forum, its a fun one. Dont like them? don't read them.
 
Only wind would be left to whistle in the empty halls of this subforum if we took out these threads. :D
 
I support giving the Mods all the liberty and freedom in shutting down obviously stupid and spammy "What if" threads. What if threads are lighthearted fun in this forum but you always have that idiot who just simply states the impossible.

"What if the Turks all died and never attacked Anatolia and the Byzantine Empire became a federal State with Colonies in the New World?"

I hate them.

We need a new forum rule. All "what if" historical situations/threads must come with a developed paragraph explaining the hypothetical situation and not just the question and the word "discuss". We shall trust the mods to come up with a definition on what is a developed paragraph.
 
A look back at history there are plenty of what if moments that could have changed the course of history as we know it, It is interesting to see how people view what might have happened had one event in the past was changed
 
Back
Top Bottom