I disagree with this argument for piety, because it is fairly easy for us to change piety to ensure you get a religion. So I have no issue with it focusing on faith and religion.
Policies: The time has come!
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
I disagree with this argument for piety, because it is fairly easy for us to change piety to ensure you get a religion. So I have no issue with it focusing on faith and religion.
I was not really trying to be rude, your changes were mostly what you've picked up from the thread and they are fine, but weak.
I'm going to go out and say now that if we are planning to raise liberty and piety to the new honors level they are going to outclass tradtion many times over. I'd argue that the new honor is a steady bit better than vanilla tradtion already (kinda hard to compare however).
If we are going to focus tradition around just the capital you're going to need some pretty bizarre level buff to make the capital make up for all the other cities you'll neglect. (Also with this happiness system a huge capital with all the national wonders and all the buildings is going to make your other cities extremly unhappy)
Options as I see it is either a huge %Food buff or the ability to work a 4th ring around the capital, and those are both rather silly.
Suggestions would be appreaciated.
What if 5 random AIs pick piety aswell then(And I'm not kidding I've seen that happen)? They are going to get the policies faster and even if I by some miracle get one of the religions (Multiple ruins?) one of the AIs now have a useless policytree. Piety could be awesome without religion, and religion doesn't need its own policytree. Move the reformationbelief to some national wonder, or make people use a 3rd great prophet to get it.
My argument is based on my math looking at trial games. I just ran another trial run and got 75 culture...which I had estimated in my last run I might get with a bit more aggressive barb spawns. Based on the numbers I am seeing, if you doubled the culture kill AND double the numbers of barbs killed....you would have broken even with tradition.
To put it in context, you have to kill 3 barb spearmen every 10 turns to keep pace with tradition...and that doesn't factor int eh border benefit of traditions culture.
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[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
nice analysis of the Honor vs Tradition early culture Stalker. You are right that linking it to barbarian activity makes it fade away though. What about giving culture for ANY kill instead? The Aztec UA could be changed to give faith instead. Also, an Honor policy that gives a one-shot science boost when you capture a city ( similar to bulbing or Korea UA ) would be fun to have imo.
@Funak: good points about Piety. Is there a way to ensure you get a religion if you pick it early? something like a one-shot boost to faith might work. Aside from that I agree with you it should give moar faith and give more use to it by improving what you can already do with it AND providing new ways
of spending it.
Also, the AI handicap could be changed so they don't get huge faith bonuses, since that would handicap the player too much on high difficulty levels.
It could also be changed to the Piety bonuses apply to Pantheons as well as religions, since those are easier to grab.
@Funak: good points about Piety. Is there a way to ensure you get a religion if you pick it early? something like a one-shot boost to faith might work. Aside from that I agree with you it should give moar faith and give more use to it by improving what you can already do with it AND providing new ways
of spending it.
Also, the AI handicap could be changed so they don't get huge faith bonuses, since that would handicap the player too much on high difficulty levels.
It could also be changed to the Piety bonuses apply to Pantheons as well as religions, since those are easier to grab.
Fair enough, but honestly I need to see it. I think its hard enough just balancing Tradition, Honor, and Liberty...and we haven't even looked at the later trees yet.
If you have a concept that can make piety useful but doesn't step on the toes of the other trees I am for it...but I need to see it on paper with some policies. My vision is just not working for a non religious version of this tree.
[to_xp]Gekko;13353419 said:
You can't really assure that every player in the game doesn't go for the pietystart, everyone can't get a religion (And in my honest opinion we should probably cut down the number of religions in the game anyways, usually gets really crowded, maybe 4/8 instead of 5/8 or something)
People will argue that you could just move piety back in the techtree and just make it so people actually have a religion before picking it, but I think that is a boring solution. also a balanceissue considering most later trees help you secure a victorycondition(Or will after we are done remaking them) while there is no victorycondition for religion.
In my opinion you can easily have 4 startertrees.
Tradtion with capitalbonuses and a few extra cities.
Honor with warmongering
Liberty with REX
Piety with just generally nice bonuses and average everything, the middle road. Worse capital/small empire than tradtion but better than liberty, slower expansion than liberty.
One step at the time
I guess I'll begin drafting something up then, will be kinda hard not stepping on libertys toes however, considering I have no idea where liberty stand yet =D
With our new model the "average" should be represented by cherrypicking through multiple trees.
If I want a slightly weaker capital than tradition but with a little more rex, than I go tradition/liberty.
As you said one step at a time. I really think we should table the piety discussion entirely, we have enough discussion on honor and tradition, and we haven't touched liberty yet.
I say we get some really nice solid trees down, and then see what we have left to workw ith pety.
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
Have you seen my edited post Funak? I can see your points but I don't think they apply in every game and generally I agree with Stalker that the tree needs a clear focus ( "average everything" just isn't appealing 
) I can see moving Piety earlier, since as you say it doesn't really have a "pushing for a victory condition" utility it should be something that comes into fruition when you're still assessing your options for how your gameplan is going to work out in the end.
) I can see moving Piety earlier, since as you say it doesn't really have a "pushing for a victory condition" utility it should be something that comes into fruition when you're still assessing your options for how your gameplan is going to work out in the end.[to_xp]Gekko;13353436 said:Have you seen my edited post Funak? I can see your points but I don't think they apply in every game and generally I agree with Stalker that the tree needs a clear focus ( "average everything" just isn't appealing
My idea wasn't giving it average attributes. The idea was giving it attributes that would make it jack of all trades. generally a stronger economy, faithgeneration and honestly I have a few more ideas but the problem is I don't know what you're planning on putting in liberty and I don't really want to say 'whatever you don't stick in liberty' but that's kinda how it is atm.
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
I think having a jack of all trades tree is not really needed, you can already cherrypick policies from other tree if you don't have a clear plan, and it seems like everyone agrees that should be a viable option so finishers shouldn't feel like something you HAVE TO get.
[to_xp]Gekko;13353453 said:
I really don't see how picking some policies out of a tree only buffing your capital and some out of a tree only promoting rapid expansion is going to land you a mediumsized empire with superior economy and extra faithgeneration. But that might just be me.
SUPEREARLY DRAFT FOR POSSIBLE PIETY
Opener: Build shrines and temples 50% faster 1+ culture and faith from shrines/temples. (each policy in piety reduces the cost of buying things with faith by X%) (including great people) (This is if you still wanted a scaling bonus in each opener)
1. 25% gold from temples. 25% gold from cityconnections
2. +2 food in all cities and 100% less unhappiness from religious strife.
3. Traderoutes to and from your cities generate an extra 2 gold for both parties and your citys religion spreads twice as fast over traderoutes.
4. Every specialist worked provides an extra 1 faith and specialists generate 25% less unhappiness
5. 20% less unhappiness from illiteracy in all cities and something else.
Finisher. Free great prophet holysites gives +3 gold +3 culture. Can purchase Great prophets with faith (Even if you don't have a religion yourself and doesn't require industrial era)
This is a real basic (and extremely terrible) early draft on an example of my vision for the piety tree. All numbers are just there for sure because I have no idea what I'm doing.
Honestly any and all of the policies could be switched for all I care, I'm not going deny that I'm horrible at this kind of thing.
Also the order got nothing to do with anything, just the order I wrote them down.
Opener: Build shrines and temples 50% faster 1+ culture and faith from shrines/temples. (each policy in piety reduces the cost of buying things with faith by X%) (including great people) (This is if you still wanted a scaling bonus in each opener)
1. 25% gold from temples. 25% gold from cityconnections
2. +2 food in all cities and 100% less unhappiness from religious strife.
3. Traderoutes to and from your cities generate an extra 2 gold for both parties and your citys religion spreads twice as fast over traderoutes.
4. Every specialist worked provides an extra 1 faith and specialists generate 25% less unhappiness
5. 20% less unhappiness from illiteracy in all cities and something else.
Finisher. Free great prophet holysites gives +3 gold +3 culture. Can purchase Great prophets with faith (Even if you don't have a religion yourself and doesn't require industrial era)
This is a real basic (and extremely terrible) early draft on an example of my vision for the piety tree. All numbers are just there for sure because I have no idea what I'm doing.
Honestly any and all of the policies could be switched for all I care, I'm not going deny that I'm horrible at this kind of thing.
Also the order got nothing to do with anything, just the order I wrote them down.
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
something like that seems reasonable, it has a religious theme but does not outright require a religion. what about moving the holy warriors belief to be a Piety policy instead?
[to_xp]Gekko;13353502 said:
Sounds reasonable, holy warriors have always been kinda sketchy anyways. (Good but not good enough that you'd use a belief on it)
Still this is a really rough sketch, but this is the general idea I wanted to use, 'faithy' and benefitting from a religion, but not requiring.
The finisher is in a really weird place, but considering Hagia Sophia can spawn great prophets that aren't religiontied I don't see why it would be impossible to implement.
Edit: I don't remember if it was CEP or something else that combined holywarriors with the one for industrial plus units and made them both a reformation belief, but if you make reformationbeliefs available to every religion (By not linking them to a policytree) that could probably be a better use for holywarriors.
mitsho
Deity
I always liked the idea of having one policy in piety being a faith spender to provide an outlet if you (have to) form a religion with many faith generators in it. These can be the monastery, since every religion has monks and nuns of some sort, but with a different effect, holy warriors fit well as well (but then there'd need to be another war-based belief imho).
I'd like to see a free temple in the piety opener. The building itself comes later, but religious societies did have big temples early on after all
Add in a small culture or faith effect and you have a solid one. Also helps with one of the next policies giving gold to temples which you'd otherwise have to research first...
I do think there can be one or two effect linked to a religion, I'd particulary like "funded cities get your religion" added to the trade one above. With a "spend faith policy", this already gets crowded and kinda jack-all, but still interesting.
As for Honor, I like the idea of a bit of expansion thrown in, but the tree already gets very crowded. I like early direct bonuses and would like to see policy number 1 coming a few turns earlier. I was thinking of coupling Honor a bit with Exploration instead. First, is it possible to change the reward of clearing barbarian camps to the script given by ruins? They are more fun (even if more unstable and thus more imbalanced, but hey...). I'd like to try that
I'd then have the opener be: Free high XP Scout, Barb culture and combat bonus, and one policy be: Double bonus for Ruins, barb camps, meeting CS + Reveal Barb Camps + bonus that stays). The problem here is obviously that you'd nee to go for it to get the maximum effort and even then it might still be too late on small maps. So it needs something to be able to be picked later on (gold bonus for CS backwards compatible, less upkeep or something).
Honor should be the policy tree that lets you get a head start. There's not much to conquer yet so the abilities regarding puppets et all just come into play later. Up until then, it'd should get bonuses that propel you forward, like the free settler, no isolation malus, free garissons.
Liberty on the other hand should help you build all your cities up and link them together: Workers, Building Bonuses, faster border expansion, free trade unit, etc.
While Tradition is focused on your one city and rewards that city growing by per-population bonuses and Piety gives you general bonuses that you can later on shape when you know more about your surroundings (via faith and religion and gold (spending)).
I'd like to see a free temple in the piety opener. The building itself comes later, but religious societies did have big temples early on after all
Add in a small culture or faith effect and you have a solid one. Also helps with one of the next policies giving gold to temples which you'd otherwise have to research first...I do think there can be one or two effect linked to a religion, I'd particulary like "funded cities get your religion" added to the trade one above. With a "spend faith policy", this already gets crowded and kinda jack-all, but still interesting.
As for Honor, I like the idea of a bit of expansion thrown in, but the tree already gets very crowded. I like early direct bonuses and would like to see policy number 1 coming a few turns earlier. I was thinking of coupling Honor a bit with Exploration instead. First, is it possible to change the reward of clearing barbarian camps to the script given by ruins? They are more fun (even if more unstable and thus more imbalanced, but hey...). I'd like to try that
I'd then have the opener be: Free high XP Scout, Barb culture and combat bonus, and one policy be: Double bonus for Ruins, barb camps, meeting CS + Reveal Barb Camps + bonus that stays). The problem here is obviously that you'd nee to go for it to get the maximum effort and even then it might still be too late on small maps. So it needs something to be able to be picked later on (gold bonus for CS backwards compatible, less upkeep or something).Honor should be the policy tree that lets you get a head start. There's not much to conquer yet so the abilities regarding puppets et all just come into play later. Up until then, it'd should get bonuses that propel you forward, like the free settler, no isolation malus, free garissons.
Liberty on the other hand should help you build all your cities up and link them together: Workers, Building Bonuses, faster border expansion, free trade unit, etc.
While Tradition is focused on your one city and rewards that city growing by per-population bonuses and Piety gives you general bonuses that you can later on shape when you know more about your surroundings (via faith and religion and gold (spending)).
So after looking at Funak's assessment of my new tradition vs the old one, I agree the new one needs some buffing. Here is that take:
EDIT: hehe so one reason it needed a buff, I just realized I had dropped legalism accidentally in the last two versions!
Tradition
Opener: +3 culture in the capital. Capital Growth increased by 4% for each policy taken in Tradition.
Aristocracy: +15% bonus to wonders, +1 Happy for each National Wonder
--I need to reintroduce some of the happy from the original tree, again I find that the wonder bonus is reason you take this, the happy just rounds it off.
Legalism: GP Improvements generate +2 yield.
--I like this concept, but it probably comes too early. Even if its near the bottom of tradition, it might still be too early.
Oligarchy: Palace gains +3 hammers, and a free engineer specialist slot.
--I bumped the hammers up to compete with the large amount of free hammers from the base tradition. With a +3 hammers, the capital catches up to standard tradition in terms of building that aqueduct and monument in about 40 terms (a little less with a workshop factored in). If you use the engineer slot, you recover in 24 turns.
Now there are still a lot of hammers from the other 3 cities that you have to account for. But by centralizing those hammers...and providing more flexibility on what they can be used for...we do get a benefit.
Landed Elite: Capital gains +2 food. Border expand faster.
--Brought back the faster borders overall.
Monarchy: +1 Gold per Pop in Capital, Capital provides +1 happy per 5 citizens.
--This combined with aristocracy gets us back to similar happiness benefits from the original tradition. We increase the gold to compensate for that free building maintenance.
Finisher: Can buy Great Engineers with Faith. Great Person +25% in the capital
--Since we couldn't agree on a specific bonus, I figured we can go with GP, who are flexible in what they offer. This finisher is a weaker than the original finisher, but now more of the meat is within the tree itself.
EDIT: hehe so one reason it needed a buff, I just realized I had dropped legalism accidentally in the last two versions!
Tradition
Opener: +3 culture in the capital. Capital Growth increased by 4% for each policy taken in Tradition.
Aristocracy: +15% bonus to wonders, +1 Happy for each National Wonder
--I need to reintroduce some of the happy from the original tree, again I find that the wonder bonus is reason you take this, the happy just rounds it off.
Legalism: GP Improvements generate +2 yield.
--I like this concept, but it probably comes too early. Even if its near the bottom of tradition, it might still be too early.
Oligarchy: Palace gains +3 hammers, and a free engineer specialist slot.
--I bumped the hammers up to compete with the large amount of free hammers from the base tradition. With a +3 hammers, the capital catches up to standard tradition in terms of building that aqueduct and monument in about 40 terms (a little less with a workshop factored in). If you use the engineer slot, you recover in 24 turns.
Now there are still a lot of hammers from the other 3 cities that you have to account for. But by centralizing those hammers...and providing more flexibility on what they can be used for...we do get a benefit.
Landed Elite: Capital gains +2 food. Border expand faster.
--Brought back the faster borders overall.
Monarchy: +1 Gold per Pop in Capital, Capital provides +1 happy per 5 citizens.
--This combined with aristocracy gets us back to similar happiness benefits from the original tradition. We increase the gold to compensate for that free building maintenance.
Finisher: Can buy Great Engineers with Faith. Great Person +25% in the capital
--Since we couldn't agree on a specific bonus, I figured we can go with GP, who are flexible in what they offer. This finisher is a weaker than the original finisher, but now more of the meat is within the tree itself.
Maybe. Some sort of monastery/cathedral/whatever-other-name-you-could-think-of however it should probably be a new building. Stealing stuff from beliefs isn't cool.
Like I said, the policies aren't really in any specific order. Also the general idea seem to be to move away from free buildings mostly because they are boring instantbenefit. And free temples would probably be way too strong specially for civs with temple-UBs. The current opener, which may or may not be way too strong (honestly I just don't see it) starts off doing nothing but will eventually give you 2 culture and 2 faith per city (which is really strong) I have no idea if the slow buildup compensates enough for how much strong it is.I'd like to see a free temple in the piety opener. The building itself comes later, but religious societies did have big temples early on after all
Maybe, but I really want to avoid more religionbased policies, that thing about traderoutes I kinda just threw in there on the fly, and specificly worded it not to say "your religion".
One idea was to change exploration to Imperialism and have it as a warfare/domination policy-tree in the renaisance era.As for Honor, I like the idea of a bit of expansion thrown in, but the tree already gets very crowded. I like early direct bonuses and would like to see policy number 1 coming a few turns earlier. I was thinking of coupling Honor a bit with Exploration instead. First, is it possible to change the reward of clearing barbarian camps to the script given by ruins? They are more fun (even if more unstable and thus more imbalanced, but hey...). I'd like to try that
