Policies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I thought of that but merchants are in a somewhat odd category... they're both gold and citystate focused. My concern is adding a GM to the Commerce tree might take too much focus away from Patronage... still thinking about it. 
Txurce
Deity
. My concern is adding a GM to the Commerce tree might take too much focus away from Patronage... still thinking about it.
This is a good point, unless the GM came late in the tree.
I really like the changes to Tradition; it makes way more sense to put the great people in tradition than liberty in my opinion. I think the GE in particular will add some very interesting choices to Tradition: do I take a free wonder (especially on higher difficulties when getting early wonders is tough) or take the manufactory for a valuable production bonus through the entire game? That said, I worry a little that putting 2 great people in the first tier of Tradition. Play testing will tell whether or not this overpowers Tradition.
I think a GM makes a bit more sense for commerce than patronage since patronage already has a policy that gives "free" great people. And speaking of great person policies, I think Democracy (+50% GPP in freedom) could use a buff. In civ 4, the general consensus the philosophical trait (+100% GPP) only resulted in ~30% more actual GPs over the course of the game, and the real advantage was that the GPs came earlier. Since Democracy comes relatively late in the game, it does not enjoy the same advantage, and assuming that GP generation is similar between the two games, +50% half way through the game has very little impact. Perhaps adding the free GP of your choice from liberty and/or increasing the GPP bonus might be a good improvement here.
I think a GM makes a bit more sense for commerce than patronage since patronage already has a policy that gives "free" great people. And speaking of great person policies, I think Democracy (+50% GPP in freedom) could use a buff. In civ 4, the general consensus the philosophical trait (+100% GPP) only resulted in ~30% more actual GPs over the course of the game, and the real advantage was that the GPs came earlier. Since Democracy comes relatively late in the game, it does not enjoy the same advantage, and assuming that GP generation is similar between the two games, +50% half way through the game has very little impact. Perhaps adding the free GP of your choice from liberty and/or increasing the GPP bonus might be a good improvement here.
Txurce
Deity
I also like them after one partial game (I just started a second one with b21). Putting two GP on the first tier of the tree doesn't seem very different from Liberty with its free settler and worker - both of which are huge so early in the game.
The issue I had was a sense that policies came too quickly - but that may just be a matter of becoming used to it.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
The great engineer is on the second tier, and the two GPs aren't on the same prerequisite path, so we have to invest in 4 policies to get both. This is the same number of policies Meritocracy required, whose prereq path also gave a free settler (arguably as strong as a GP that early in the game). 
This is a good idea.
This is a good idea.
So I'm trying out a couple of starter builds just to see how the new tradition tree is working.
Per a debate I'm having with Thal, I'm trying to get culture wins with large unpuppeted empires to see how feasible it is.
Right now I'm going Tradition -> Legalism to get an immediate GA. With the landmark, legalism pays for itself almost instantly, and that's a huge culture bump for the rest of the game.
From there I start liberty, and generally right as I am ready to begin expanding I get the policy for my free settler. I am able to quick build a settler with 50% boost, so I basically can get up to 3 cities in short order.
From there I push towards representation as I get monuments in all 3 cities, and then build my forth.
The timing is actually quite nice, just as get philosophy I can pick up monarchy and bag 4 temples instantly.
Past that point, I jump back and forth between liberty and tradition. Eventually with +2 food from liberty and 15% growth from tradition I can get some quick growing cities.
Right now the timing feels very smooth. As far as the power, we will see, I can say having a landmark off the bat definitely keeps the policies coming.
Per a debate I'm having with Thal, I'm trying to get culture wins with large unpuppeted empires to see how feasible it is.
Right now I'm going Tradition -> Legalism to get an immediate GA. With the landmark, legalism pays for itself almost instantly, and that's a huge culture bump for the rest of the game.
From there I start liberty, and generally right as I am ready to begin expanding I get the policy for my free settler. I am able to quick build a settler with 50% boost, so I basically can get up to 3 cities in short order.
From there I push towards representation as I get monuments in all 3 cities, and then build my forth.
The timing is actually quite nice, just as get philosophy I can pick up monarchy and bag 4 temples instantly.
Past that point, I jump back and forth between liberty and tradition. Eventually with +2 food from liberty and 15% growth from tradition I can get some quick growing cities.
Right now the timing feels very smooth. As far as the power, we will see, I can say having a landmark off the bat definitely keeps the policies coming.
Txurce
Deity
Good approach, Stalker. I'll try that in my next Culture game.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
Hey Thal. These impressions are based on play of the v70 Total Balance Mod. If you'd rather that I discuss them there, then let me know.
Anyway, I confess that I was disappointed to see the reduced cost land purchase ability removed from Monarchy. Is it possible to maybe reduce the culture bonus from Monarchy, & bring back a lower powered land-purchase discount? If not, is there any chance you'll bring back this function for a different social policy?
Also, in general, as a builder I'm still a bit disappointed with the number of *late-game* policies with a strictly combat focus. Is there any possibility of you perhaps giving these policies a lesser, secondary ability that will benefit builders?
Anyway, that aside, I'm definitely liking your policy trees a *lot* better than those in the Vanilla game. Great work!
Aussie.
Anyway, I confess that I was disappointed to see the reduced cost land purchase ability removed from Monarchy. Is it possible to maybe reduce the culture bonus from Monarchy, & bring back a lower powered land-purchase discount? If not, is there any chance you'll bring back this function for a different social policy?
Also, in general, as a builder I'm still a bit disappointed with the number of *late-game* policies with a strictly combat focus. Is there any possibility of you perhaps giving these policies a lesser, secondary ability that will benefit builders?
Anyway, that aside, I'm definitely liking your policy trees a *lot* better than those in the Vanilla game. Great work!
Aussie.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
The problem with changing land costs is how they stack. A 25% policy alone has relatively little effect. But if we're America the policy doubles in effect (0.5 / 0.25), and with Angkor Wat too it increases infinitely (0.25 / 0). The only way to have such a policy in the game is to nerf the others. I want Washington's trait to be strong and have a noticeable effect, which is why I changed it to 50%, and means there can only be one other reduction (Angkor).
Food storage faces a similar issue. The Aqueduct is a 40% reduction and Medlab is 25%, so it's not possible to put more such effects in the game without making them either 1) weak alone or 2) overpowered when combined. This is why I added a new effect to the game for the Pioneer Fort, a surplus modifier, instead of using food storage. Altering income avoids the limit-approaching problem of altering costs. Firaxis also did this with the Hospital.
The best solution is for plot purchase costs modifiers to multiply instead of add, so each 50% reduction makes it 50% → 25% → 12% → 6% → etc. This way all such reductions are powerful both on their own and in combination. This is a fundamental issue with Civ's non-intuitive adding multipliers instead of multiplying multipliers, not something we can change without c++ access.
(Another solution is inverting an addition, something Blizzard does in their games. Basically it's like 0.66 → 0.5 → 0.4 → 0.33, the result of 1/1.5 → 1/2.0 → 1/2.5 → 1/3.0)
Yeah I know, probably a longer answer than you expected, but that's some of the thoughts going on behind the scenes.
Food storage faces a similar issue. The Aqueduct is a 40% reduction and Medlab is 25%, so it's not possible to put more such effects in the game without making them either 1) weak alone or 2) overpowered when combined. This is why I added a new effect to the game for the Pioneer Fort, a surplus modifier, instead of using food storage. Altering income avoids the limit-approaching problem of altering costs. Firaxis also did this with the Hospital.
The best solution is for plot purchase costs modifiers to multiply instead of add, so each 50% reduction makes it 50% → 25% → 12% → 6% → etc. This way all such reductions are powerful both on their own and in combination. This is a fundamental issue with Civ's non-intuitive adding multipliers instead of multiplying multipliers, not something we can change without c++ access.
(Another solution is inverting an addition, something Blizzard does in their games. Basically it's like 0.66 → 0.5 → 0.4 → 0.33, the result of 1/1.5 → 1/2.0 → 1/2.5 → 1/3.0)
Yeah I know, probably a longer answer than you expected, but that's some of the thoughts going on behind the scenes.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I think I remember that too, but principle problem is the effects are weak alone and overpowered when combined. It's a balance nightmare I wasn't able to solve, so it was a relief when Firaxis removed the effect. 
Txurce
Deity
Playing b22, I chose rationalism, received my GS - and a four-turn GA.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
The problem with changing land costs is how they stack. A 25% policy alone has relatively little effect. But if we're America the policy doubles in effect (0.5 / 0.25), and with Angkor Wat too it increases infinitely (0.25 / 0). The only way to have such a policy in the game is to nerf the others. I want Washington's trait to be strong and have a noticeable effect, which is why I changed it to 50%, and means there can only be one other reduction (Angkor).
Food storage faces a similar issue. The Aqueduct is a 40% reduction and Medlab is 25%, so it's not possible to put more such effects in the game without making them either 1) weak alone or 2) overpowered when combined. This is why I added a new effect to the game for the Pioneer Fort, a surplus modifier, instead of using food storage. Altering income avoids the limit-approaching problem of altering costs. Firaxis also did this with the Hospital.
The best solution is for plot purchase costs modifiers to multiply instead of add, so each 50% reduction makes it 50% → 25% → 12% → 6% → etc. This way all such reductions are powerful both on their own and in combination. This is a fundamental issue with Civ's non-intuitive adding multipliers instead of multiplying multipliers, not something we can change without c++ access.
(Another solution is inverting an addition, something Blizzard does in their games. Basically it's like 0.66 → 0.5 → 0.4 → 0.33, the result of 1/1.5 → 1/2.0 → 1/2.5 → 1/3.0)
Yeah I know, probably a longer answer than you expected, but that's some of the thoughts going on behind the scenes.
Oh well, another one where we'll need to wait. No problem. You know, though, I always found it *hysterical* that America's UA & the Monarchy Policy had such a strong additive effect-given the fact that, if you were being historically accurate, they'd be pursuing Liberty policies ;-). Hmmm, maybe once you can fix this problem, you could move it to one of the Liberty policies-though I'm not certain which one that would be.
Aussie.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
I could easily see it on Meritocracy, but three effects on one SP may be too much.
Well, if it were moved to Meritocracy, you could probably either ditch one of the other Meritocracy Effects, or move the effect to another social policy.
Aussie.
Loo here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10445429#post10445429
Basically mods using ingame.xml causes it.
\Skodkim
