Policy Discussion: Honor

[Stalker0]

Still think honor could have given som unique promotion like extra strength when attacking cities (and probably replace statue of zeus, never really liked that one honestly)

I like that concept!

 

[Lord Tirian]

One could move the "Cities increase the costs of policies less" into Feudalism. It'd fit thematically and provide a bonus for annexed cities as well. Might be too strong though.

Is that enough or do we need some more? I will run a little math later on to see how many free hammers honor is getting now and we will see if its competitive.

Regarding this and the complaint that Feudalism is a bit meh at the moment because it only affects conquered cities, I actually think here's a good place to "pinch" something from the current liberty discussion we could add to the current set of bonuses: "+1 hammer in all cities while not at war".

Basically, it gives the policy an "alternative" use while you're not at war (where the "occupied city" bonus becomes useless) and helps you gearing up for the next war. It's also nice to even give a Honor player a small incentive not to be at war at all times.

Yes because that was sooooo peaceful =D

Hah, I was more aiming at the fact that it was a good euphemism for non-war times, not that it was super nice!

Though now I actually had the idea that "Glory" would be a good name for the tree, it fits war time and rapid expansion, it's all about the glory of the empire and so on.

 

[amphreded]

Would love to see Great General having no maintenance cost so he isn't a burden in peaceful. Could be something like stationing GG in a city eliminates his maintenance cost and add city defense.


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[Stalker0]

Would love to see Great General having no maintenance cost so he isn't a burden in peaceful. Could be something like stationing GG in a city eliminates his maintenance cost and add city defense.

This gave me another idea:


Units adjacent to a GG during peacetime gain 1 XP every 2 turns.

Basically a peacetime regiment program.

 

[Funak]

This gave me another idea:


Units adjacent to a GG during peacetime gain 1 XP every 2 turns.

Basically a peacetime regiment program.

Feels a bit like the CEP-dojo, which imo wasn't really a good idea, promotions are too powerful to just stack up without any risk. But that's just my opinion.

Also we should probably not give people any more reason to keep GGs standing around instead of settling them, because that's mostly what people are doing anyways.

 

[Stalker0]

Feels a bit like the CEP-dojo, which imo wasn't really a good idea, promotions are too powerful to just stack up without any risk. But that's just my opinion.

Also we should probably not give people any more reason to keep GGs standing around instead of settling them, because that's mostly what people are doing anyways.

Ok let me reverse the idea then:


A unit that is garrison in a citadel gains 1 xp every X turns.


The code for this exists in CEP through one of the tradition policies if I am not mistaken.

 

[Funak]

Ok let me reverse the idea then:


A unit that is garrison in a citadel gains 1 xp every X turns.


The code for this exists in CEP through one of the tradition policies if I am not mistaken.

Atleast better.

Would probably need some other buff for citadels in the Imperialism tree if we make one. maybe doubling its size and/or damage

 

[void_genesis]

How about a combo of active and passive bonus on using citadels: get +1 XP for units in a citadel during peace, and double XP rate for units in/beside a citadel (rewards using them in active combat).

 

[Gazebo]

Conquest v1.0
Opener: Bonus +33% vs. Barbarians, encampment notifications and culture for barbarian units killed and for each conquered city.

Imperialism: No Isolation unhappiness. A Free Settler appears in the capital.

Feudalism: Garrisons in occupied cities reduce that city's unhappiness from occupation by 30%, garrisoned puppeted cities gain +20% to all yields. Requires Imperialism.

Looting: Gain gold for each unit killed. Killing enemy units heals the victorious unit by 20.

Military Caste: Units gain +10% combat strength when adjacent to a friendly unit. A free ranged unit spawns with new settled cities. Requires Looting.

Warrior Code: A free General appears outside your capital. Population reduction from city capture is reduced to 25% and unrest is reduced by 25%. Requires Military Caste.

Finisher: Cities increase the culture cost of policies by 25% less than normal. Whenever you conquer a civilization's capital, start a Golden Age. Great Generals can be purchased with faith at the Industrial Era.

Okay, so if this is roughly the finished Honor, here are the functions I need to add:

1.) Isolation unhappiness removal
2.) Garrisons v. occupied cities; garrisoned v. puppet cities
3.) free ranged w/ city
4.) pop reduction from city capture
5.) conquer capital = golden age

Quite a few here - are we really not going to keep the majority of the honor branch's existing functions? Seems a waste, some weren't so bad. I guess we can recycle them in ideologies/other branches.

G

 

[Funak]

Okay, so if this is roughly the finished Honor, here are the functions I need to add:

1.) Isolation unhappiness removal
2.) Garrisons v. occupied cities; garrisoned v. puppet cities
3.) free ranged w/ city
4.) pop reduction from city capture
5.) conquer capital = golden age

Quite a few here - are we really not going to keep the majority of the honor branch's existing functions? Seems a waste, some weren't so bad. I guess we can recycle them in ideologies/other branches.

G

I have no idea why work on honor was dropped, It still isn't done imo

Also make sure there is a limit for golden ages not triggering from the same city more than once (if you lose and retake it)

 

[Gazebo]

If that is the case, you all need to hop to it! I've got functions to write.
G

 

[mitsho]

Well, let's look at them:

a) People shy away from bonuses to combat since the player doesn't need it as long as the AI remains incompetent. Conquering stuff has never been the problem, turning the conquered things around has.

That eliminated the "bonus to units next to each other" (this might be included in a "imperialism" tree or a ideology though!) and "extra experience" (simply too strong and not needed, makes barracks less valuable - I can see this as a wonder though f.e.) and gave us the bonus to yields as above.

b) Garrison bonuses are okay balance-wise but it kinda ties units to the cities when the Honor player should be out using them, right? Could be included to the feudalism policy though...

c) The last effect missing is the bonus to building melee units. I dislike the specificity (why melee?) and it isn't as good a bonus anyways...

Regarding the functions needing to be added, I'd probably like a general reduction of pop reduction from city capture anyways. It's hard to say how much this is needed.

If it's easier to code, Golden Age points on any city capture is a more clear-cut option with a similar effect.

 

[Funak]

Restarting this discussion because it needs to be done (and clearly no one else cares! ^^)

HONOR 1.0


Opener: Bonus +33% vs. Barbarians, encampment notifications and culture for barbarian units killed (equal to 150% combastrength of the unit), 25 culture for each barbarian camp captured and Xculture for each conquered city Cities gain 3% productionbonus when producing (military?)units for every additional policy taken in Honor.

Imperialism: No Isolation unhappiness. A Free Settler appears in the capital.

Feudalism: Garrisons in occupied cities reduce that city's unhappiness from occupation by 30%, garrisoned puppeted cities gain +20% to all yields. Requires Imperialism.

Looting: Gain gold for each unit killed(100%//150%?). Killing enemy units heals the victorious unit by 20 (all units, ranged, ships, planes?).

Military Caste: Units gain +10%(15%?) combat strength when adjacent to a friendly unit. A free ranged unit spawns with new settled cities. Requires Looting.

Warrior Code: A free General appears outside your capital. Population reduction from city capture is reduced to 25% and unrest is reduced by 25%. Requires Military Caste.

Finisher: Cities increase the culture cost of policies by 25% less than normal. Whenever you conquer a civilization's capital(for the first time), start a Golden Age. Great Generals can be purchased with faith at the Industrial Era


Things that could be added:
Something for peacetime?
Unique promotion? Suggestions:
1) Extra combatstrength vs cities?
2) Naval units can heal outside of friendly territory?
3) Extra gold from pillaging?

More suggestions are welcome.

 

[mitsho]

I fear the Opener's tooltip.... I'd move the "camp notification" out and maybe the culture from captured cities, maybe to Imperialism.

The tree does seem quite full already with two effects per policy, but I guess that's okay.

Certainly the bonuses should apply to all units, especially ships. That might be gold on long expeditions versus barbs for example. (=fun)

Not sure about the decreased cultural costs in the finisher. Maybe switch this with the Warrior Code effect and lose the Great General there, they are easy enough to get and the GG isn't valuable on a linked policy. It's only interesting if you can use it for a very early citadel or a rush or exploration (=choice).

Again, I'd shy away from combat bonuses. Gold (or science) from Pillaging kinda depends on the AI's ability to this. A human player could declare war with the intent only to pillage which might be fun in multiplayer but perhaps unbalanced against AI (though the human can just not use it abusively... kinda like 'we' don't do worker steals from city states, right? right guys... )

 

[Funak]

I fear the Opener's tooltip.... I'd move the "camp notification" out and maybe the culture from captured cities, maybe to Imperialism.

The opener is fine powervise, it's cluttered but I'll let some someone reword it when we are actually done with the tree. Not really my forte

Again, I'd shy away from combat bonuses. Gold (or science) from Pillaging kinda depends on the AI's ability to this. A human player could declare war with the intent only to pillage which might be fun in multiplayer but perhaps unbalanced against AI (though the human can just not use it abusively... kinda like 'we' don't do worker steals from city states, right? right guys... )

Big problem is that you NEED combat bonuses, you need a reason to go into the tree you need AIs actually being able to capture cities if they go honor.
City attack bonus (like statue of zeus, which is extremely boring and should probably be replaced anyways) could assist without making the bonus too strong.
All you need to do is place units infront of your cities (Something the AI is suprisingly good at actually, and something that's normally stupid because the city can take a lot more punishment than your units)

EDIT: RnR got a 1food/1hammer bonus on horses and iron, that could be a somewhat useful peaceful bonus perhaps.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I fear the Opener's tooltip.... I'd move the "camp notification" out and maybe the culture from captured cities, maybe to Imperialism.

We don't have to spell it out explicitly. Here's a mildly modified version of the current one:

"Adopting Honor gives a +33% combat bonus against Barbarians, and notifications will be provided when new Barbarian Encampments spawn in revealed territory. Gain Culture for the empire from each barbarian unit killed, encampment cleared or city conquered. Unlocks building the Statue of Zeus wonder."

Of course, if we add production rate it's not going to get less crowded... I'd be fine with moving culture from cities to one of the first policies, it slightly deters a very early rush which is fine with me (and keeps the opener mostly barbarian themed).

Finally, instead of giving the opener a construction bonus, why not simply "+3% combat bonus for every additional policy adopted"? It grows over time, is enough to make an impact as "tie-breaker" but isn't overwhelming. Feels more distinct from liberty, too. I wouldn't mind "units get +1 XP for each policy taken when built" either - similar effect in practise..

 

[Funak]

Finally, instead of giving the opener a construction bonus, why not simply "+3% combat bonus for every additional policy adopted"? It grows over time, is enough to make an impact as "tie-breaker" but isn't overwhelming. Feels more distinct from liberty, too. I wouldn't mind "units get +1 XP for each policy taken when built" either - similar effect in practise..

Personally like the constructionbonus as long as it affects all military units. (Could also affect civ units if people think that's smart)

Adding a too high combatbonus without a condition wouldn't be that cool either (Honor is about attacking not defending, right?)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Beyond Earth has a Might policy called Scavenging that gives science per killer alien equal to its strength, and science on nest destroyed. could be fitting for honor

 

[mystikx21]

The only objection I had was to puppeted cities getting a bonus to all yields (and not just gold, and maybe culture). The rest of the tree was done as far as I was concerned.

Of the existing honor functions
1) We are keeping gold from kills, and barbarian effects, and strength for adjacent units
2) Garrison bonus was somewhat lame. Faster melee unit production isn't all that important either (stops at melee units I believe).
3) 50% XP wasn't bad, and I wouldn't mind finding a home for it (possibly in imperialism as part of something else), or have a raw XP bonus.
4) -Gold cost of unit upgrades is a good effect.
5) Faster GGs doesn't really matter unless citadels are improved or GGs do something for you (generate happy or tourism say).

 

[Gazebo]

My take on wording and bonuses:

Opener: +33% Strength vs. Barbarians, and receive Notifications when Encampments appear. Earn Culture from defeating units, capturing Cities and clearing Encampments. +3% Production when building Military units for every Honor policy taken.

-- This looks fine to me, power-wise.

Imperialism: No Unhappiness from Isolation. A Free Settler appears in the Capital. +25% to production of Settlers.

-- Looks good to me. Added production bonus for settlers.

Martial Law: Garrisons in Occupied Cities reduce Unhappiness from Occupation by 50%. Unhappiness reduced by an additional 20% in Puppet Cities.

-- Changed name. Used pre-existing policy function I made (instead of garrison one). Instant effect is better than forced Garrison in that regard. Buffed Occupation bonus.

Logistics: Killing a military unit generates Science based on the defeated unit's strength. All land Units heal for 20 points after killing a Military unit.

-- Fine. Changed name and bonus. Should probably only work for land units (we'll save naval and air bonuses for Exploration branch).

Conscription: Units gain +10% Combat Strength when adjacent to a friendly unit. A ranged unit spawns in your Capital, and in every city settled after taking this Policy.

-- Added Capital, to help AI (if it is dumb and gets this 1 turn after settling a city).

Military Tradition: A free Great General appears outside your capital. Building a Military Unit in a City grants 15% of its cost as free Production for the City's next project.

-- This was not very good. Branch sorely lacks any kind of passive bonuses. I've added this one. Should scale well, and has a nice 'military ramp-up' effect to it.

Finisher: Cities increase the culture cost of policies by 25% less than normal. Whenever you conquer a city for the first time, immediately receive 25% of the points needed for your next Golden Age. Great Generals can be purchased with faith at the Industrial Era

-- Changed to apply to all cities, at a % rate. Should scale better for map sizes.
G