Polish-Lithuanian influence on ethnic divisions of Eastern Slavs
- Thread starter Domen
- Start date
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Text about the role of Poland in shaping the Ukrainian ethnos, written by Ukrainian historian - Yaroslav Hrytsak - excerpt from one of chapters of his article "On Sales and Gales and Ships Driving in Various Directions: Post-Soviet Ukraine as a Test Case For the Meso-Area Concept":
http://www.personal.ceu.hu/staff/Yaroslav_Hrytsak/
http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/coe21/publish/no7_ses/chapter02.pdf
As you can see Polish impact was the key to emergence of Ukrainian ethnos / identity.
Here is the summary of points made above by Ukrainian historian Yaroslav Hrytsak:
1) Early modern Ukrainian language (so called prosta mova) was closer to Polish than Russian in its vocabulary.
2) Ukraine was little affected by Russian cultural influences. Polish culture dominated until 1850s and extended as far as Kharkiv University.
3) Poland introduced Western European innovations to Ukraine (including German urban law, that had been previously adopted by Poland).
4) Both Ukrainian and Israeli national anthems begin with words "Ukraine / Israel has not yet died" - paraphrases of Polish anthem.
5) Ukrainian historians preferred Polish historical treatises to Russian sources, even when describing history of Kievan Rus.
6) Polish rule was a long-term integration factor for Belarussian and Ukrainian ethnic territories, under Polish rule they became distinct from Russians.
7) Cossack ethos was based on a Polish concept of homeland. Cossack desires of liberty and autonomy were based on ideas of Polish nobility.
8) Polish nationalism did for Belarussians and Ukrainians what French nationalism did for West Europeans - nationalized them, contributing to them becoming distinct nations from Russians.
9) The extent of historical Polish eastward political expansion, corresponds to / coincides with the intensity of Ukrainian identity (as distinct from Russian identity) and the spread of Ukrainian language among population.
10) Strongest and most visible until nowadays historical impact of Poland remains especially in Western Ukraine.
http://www.personal.ceu.hu/staff/Yaroslav_Hrytsak/
http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/coe21/publish/no7_ses/chapter02.pdf
As you can see Polish impact was the key to emergence of Ukrainian ethnos / identity.
Here is the summary of points made above by Ukrainian historian Yaroslav Hrytsak:
1) Early modern Ukrainian language (so called prosta mova) was closer to Polish than Russian in its vocabulary.
2) Ukraine was little affected by Russian cultural influences. Polish culture dominated until 1850s and extended as far as Kharkiv University.
3) Poland introduced Western European innovations to Ukraine (including German urban law, that had been previously adopted by Poland).
4) Both Ukrainian and Israeli national anthems begin with words "Ukraine / Israel has not yet died" - paraphrases of Polish anthem.
5) Ukrainian historians preferred Polish historical treatises to Russian sources, even when describing history of Kievan Rus.
6) Polish rule was a long-term integration factor for Belarussian and Ukrainian ethnic territories, under Polish rule they became distinct from Russians.
7) Cossack ethos was based on a Polish concept of homeland. Cossack desires of liberty and autonomy were based on ideas of Polish nobility.
8) Polish nationalism did for Belarussians and Ukrainians what French nationalism did for West Europeans - nationalized them, contributing to them becoming distinct nations from Russians.
9) The extent of historical Polish eastward political expansion, corresponds to / coincides with the intensity of Ukrainian identity (as distinct from Russian identity) and the spread of Ukrainian language among population.
10) Strongest and most visible until nowadays historical impact of Poland remains especially in Western Ukraine.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Regarding Polish-Lithuanian ethnic issues and border conflicts after World War 1.
In 1922 Poland annexed so called Central Lithuania (1920 - 1922) - area with ethnic Polish majority.
==================================
According to German population census of 1916:
A) Districts territories of which entirely became parts of Central Lithuania (Litwa Środkowa) in 1920:
1) City Wilna - 139,247 people in total, including 2,662 Lithuanians (1,9%) and 74,221 Poles (53,3%)
2) District Wilna - 74,700 people in total, including 2,713 Lithuanians (3,6%) and 68,136 Poles (91,1%)
B) Districts territories of which partially became parts of Central Lithuania (Litwa Środkowa) in 1920:
3) District Neuschwintzen - 91,689 people, including 25,259 Lithuanians (27,5%) and 55,971 Poles (61,0%)
4) District Schirwindt - 62,262 people, including 13,539 Lithuanians (21,7%) and 45,338 Poles (72,8%)
5) District Mulau - 30,159 people, including 13,087 Lithuanians (43,4%) and 14,587 Poles (48,4%)
6) District Koschedary - 61,440 people, including 29,033 Lithuanians (47,3%) and 27,441 Poles (44,7%)
All in all in these 6 districts according to 1916 German population census there were:
459,497 people, including 86,293 Lithuanians (18,8%) and 285,694 Poles (62,2%).
Not entire area of these 6 districts was incorporated to Central Lithuania.
In total the Republic of Central Lithuania had around 400,000 inhabitants as of 1920.
==================================
There was also significant Polish population in what became independent Lithuanian state (with capital in Kaunas) after WW1:
City Kaunas - ethnic Poles were 34,5% of all inhabitants according to 1916 census
Liaudė region (Lauda region / Laudanian region) - ethnic Poles were 55% of its inhabitants according to 1916 census
Results of elections to city council in Kaunas in 1918:
Out of 71 members of city council elected, 30 were Poles, 22 were Jews, 12 were Lithuanians, 6 were Germans and 1 was Russian.
42% votes in 1918 city council elections in Kaunas were votes for the Polish list.
Also mayor of Kaunas elected in 1918 was an ethnic Polish person.
In 1923 city council elections in Kaunas once again a large part - 31,5% - of votes were for the Polish list.
Those results of city council elections were in stark contrast to official Lithuanian population census of 1923, according to which Poles in Kaunas were only 4,6% of inhabitants. They were also in contrast to German census of 1916 (according to which Poles were 34,5% of population in Kaunas). But German 1916 census (34,5% Poles in Kaunas) was in agreement with results of city council elections (votes for Polish lists: 42% in 1918, 31,5% in 1923).
===================================
According to official population census of 1923, minorities of the Republic of Lithuania included:
- 65,700 Poles (3,2% of country's population)
- 153,600 Jews
- 29,300 Germans
According to Polish data of that time (estimations based on German 1916 census and results of elections):
- 202,000 Poles (9,9% of country's population)
- 181,800 Jews
- 44,500 Germans
Official Lithuanian population census of 1923 understated population size of these 3 minority groups.
Number of Polish minority was understated 3-times, of German minority 1,5-times and of Jewish minority 1,2 times.
In 1922 Poland annexed so called Central Lithuania (1920 - 1922) - area with ethnic Polish majority.
==================================
According to German population census of 1916:
A) Districts territories of which entirely became parts of Central Lithuania (Litwa Środkowa) in 1920:
1) City Wilna - 139,247 people in total, including 2,662 Lithuanians (1,9%) and 74,221 Poles (53,3%)
2) District Wilna - 74,700 people in total, including 2,713 Lithuanians (3,6%) and 68,136 Poles (91,1%)
B) Districts territories of which partially became parts of Central Lithuania (Litwa Środkowa) in 1920:
3) District Neuschwintzen - 91,689 people, including 25,259 Lithuanians (27,5%) and 55,971 Poles (61,0%)
4) District Schirwindt - 62,262 people, including 13,539 Lithuanians (21,7%) and 45,338 Poles (72,8%)
5) District Mulau - 30,159 people, including 13,087 Lithuanians (43,4%) and 14,587 Poles (48,4%)
6) District Koschedary - 61,440 people, including 29,033 Lithuanians (47,3%) and 27,441 Poles (44,7%)
All in all in these 6 districts according to 1916 German population census there were:
459,497 people, including 86,293 Lithuanians (18,8%) and 285,694 Poles (62,2%).
Not entire area of these 6 districts was incorporated to Central Lithuania.
In total the Republic of Central Lithuania had around 400,000 inhabitants as of 1920.
==================================
There was also significant Polish population in what became independent Lithuanian state (with capital in Kaunas) after WW1:
City Kaunas - ethnic Poles were 34,5% of all inhabitants according to 1916 census
Liaudė region (Lauda region / Laudanian region) - ethnic Poles were 55% of its inhabitants according to 1916 census
Results of elections to city council in Kaunas in 1918:
Out of 71 members of city council elected, 30 were Poles, 22 were Jews, 12 were Lithuanians, 6 were Germans and 1 was Russian.
42% votes in 1918 city council elections in Kaunas were votes for the Polish list.
Also mayor of Kaunas elected in 1918 was an ethnic Polish person.
In 1923 city council elections in Kaunas once again a large part - 31,5% - of votes were for the Polish list.
Those results of city council elections were in stark contrast to official Lithuanian population census of 1923, according to which Poles in Kaunas were only 4,6% of inhabitants. They were also in contrast to German census of 1916 (according to which Poles were 34,5% of population in Kaunas). But German 1916 census (34,5% Poles in Kaunas) was in agreement with results of city council elections (votes for Polish lists: 42% in 1918, 31,5% in 1923).
===================================
According to official population census of 1923, minorities of the Republic of Lithuania included:
- 65,700 Poles (3,2% of country's population)
- 153,600 Jews
- 29,300 Germans
According to Polish data of that time (estimations based on German 1916 census and results of elections):
- 202,000 Poles (9,9% of country's population)
- 181,800 Jews
- 44,500 Germans
Official Lithuanian population census of 1923 understated population size of these 3 minority groups.
Number of Polish minority was understated 3-times, of German minority 1,5-times and of Jewish minority 1,2 times.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Population of Kaunas - capital city of the Republic of Lithuania - basing on 1923 elections results:
Total population: 92,446 people, including:
- ca. 29,427 Jews (31,8%)
- ca. 29,104 Poles (31,5%)
- ca. 27,669 Lithuanians (29,9%)
- ca. 4,164 Germans (4,5%)
- ca. 2,082 Russians (2,3%)
Source:
Polish estimation "Statystyka narodowościowa Litwy Kowieńskiej na podstawie danych głosowania do Sejmów. Opracowana według urzędowych danych statystyki wyborczej przez Centralny Polski Komitet Wyborczy" published in 1926.
=================================
Poles were more numerous than Lithuanians also in some rural areas of the Republic of Lithuania:
Kaunas County - in 5 communes of this county, Poles were majority:
Lapes - 4144 Poles, 138 Lithuanians
Turzenai - 3445 Poles, 515 Lithuanians
Vandziogala - 5973 Poles, 700 Lithuanians
Babtai - 3807 Poles, 1903 Lithuanians
Jonava - 4115 Poles, 3488 Lithuanians
Trakai-Kaišiadorys County - in 2 communes:
Vievis - 5452 Poles, 855 Lithuanians
Aukstadvaris - 3739 Poles, 3613 Lithuanians
Ukmerge County - in 2 communes:
Giedraiciai - 5788 Poles, 3074 Lithuanians
Sirvintos - 6754 Poles, 1603 Lithuanians
Utena County - in 1 commune:
Joniskis - 4361 Poles, 1717 Lithuanians
Zarasai County - in 1 commune:
Smalvos - 1857 Poles, 409 Lithuanians
Total population: 92,446 people, including:
- ca. 29,427 Jews (31,8%)
- ca. 29,104 Poles (31,5%)
- ca. 27,669 Lithuanians (29,9%)
- ca. 4,164 Germans (4,5%)
- ca. 2,082 Russians (2,3%)
Source:
Polish estimation "Statystyka narodowościowa Litwy Kowieńskiej na podstawie danych głosowania do Sejmów. Opracowana według urzędowych danych statystyki wyborczej przez Centralny Polski Komitet Wyborczy" published in 1926.
=================================
Poles were more numerous than Lithuanians also in some rural areas of the Republic of Lithuania:
Kaunas County - in 5 communes of this county, Poles were majority:
Lapes - 4144 Poles, 138 Lithuanians
Turzenai - 3445 Poles, 515 Lithuanians
Vandziogala - 5973 Poles, 700 Lithuanians
Babtai - 3807 Poles, 1903 Lithuanians
Jonava - 4115 Poles, 3488 Lithuanians
Trakai-Kaišiadorys County - in 2 communes:
Vievis - 5452 Poles, 855 Lithuanians
Aukstadvaris - 3739 Poles, 3613 Lithuanians
Ukmerge County - in 2 communes:
Giedraiciai - 5788 Poles, 3074 Lithuanians
Sirvintos - 6754 Poles, 1603 Lithuanians
Utena County - in 1 commune:
Joniskis - 4361 Poles, 1717 Lithuanians
Zarasai County - in 1 commune:
Smalvos - 1857 Poles, 409 Lithuanians
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Domen, you are correct I am sure. But it is worth pointing out that Ukrainians and Belarusians were 'Russian' until relatively recently--and indeed many of them, including ones I know personally,still don't really acknowledge the difference; arguably Belarusians are more 'Russian' because they still use the word 'Rusian', whereas Ukrainians are no longer frequently called Malorusians. 'Russia-proper' is very big, an almost certainly Slavic dialects in places like Novogorod were more distinct from the Suzdalia version than the versions around places like Kiev, Chernigov, Polotsk, and so on, if not places like Volhynia. It's a perverse kind of historical reverse imperialism that anachronizes 'Ukrainian' and 'Belarusian' as historical linguistic identities, but denies it to other 'east Slavic' regions outside the Suzdalia region that gave rise to the Muscovite/ 'Russian' state.
The Muscovite government strongly controlled printing, but it enjoyed more free currency in neighbouring 'historically Russian' region that were autonomous or under P-L control. So if we wonder why Smolensk is now 'Russian' in linguisto-national identity but Kiev isn't, it might be down to the fact that the Muscovite authorities were unable to give the language identity and standard outside the area controlled by them when printing emerged. If you take the dates of 1667 for Kiev and 1514 for Smolensk, it is notable that printing in the vernacular took its form in the intervening period. This is definitely why French, Catalan and Occitan have linguistic identities but, say, Gascon or Angevin do not ... even though the peasants of each region spoke dialects just as distinct.
The Muscovite government strongly controlled printing, but it enjoyed more free currency in neighbouring 'historically Russian' region that were autonomous or under P-L control. So if we wonder why Smolensk is now 'Russian' in linguisto-national identity but Kiev isn't, it might be down to the fact that the Muscovite authorities were unable to give the language identity and standard outside the area controlled by them when printing emerged. If you take the dates of 1667 for Kiev and 1514 for Smolensk, it is notable that printing in the vernacular took its form in the intervening period. This is definitely why French, Catalan and Occitan have linguistic identities but, say, Gascon or Angevin do not ... even though the peasants of each region spoke dialects just as distinct.
Read Marija Gimbutas! The original Letts were their own people. They were not Slavic, Prussian, Russian or Polish. Their original language is an offshoot of Sanskrit. In later times their empire was picked away by the others mentioned.
Latvia and Lithuania are what remains of the Letts, even though their language has been diluted by those other nations.
Although Latvia was officially Christianized centuries before, they only gave up their original faith when christian armies came in and slaughtered them and destroying their places of worship. Today they have as much German, Russian and Slavic blood as Lett.
Latvia and Lithuania are what remains of the Letts, even though their language has been diluted by those other nations.
Although Latvia was officially Christianized centuries before, they only gave up their original faith when christian armies came in and slaughtered them and destroying their places of worship. Today they have as much German, Russian and Slavic blood as Lett.
Phrossack
Armored Fish and Armored Men
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2008
- Messages
- 6,045
That's not entirely accurate. The Letts' language did not descend from Sanskrit. While their languages have similarities (Hinduism and Baltic paganism also have similarities), that's because they're both Indo-European.
Letts and Livs weren't always forcibly Christianized, either. A lot of them willingly sided with German and Scandinavian invaders and converted because they needed protection from the Lithuanians. On the other hand, there really were a lot of Baltic and Finnic peoples who fiercely resisted conversion.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Pangur Ban said:
I found a book from 1825 which already distinguishes Ukrainians and Belarussians from Russians.
On the other hand, this book does not distinguish Ukrainians from Belarussians - calling them Rusini (while callings Russians - Rosjanie).
The book in question is titled - in English translation - "Geography of Eastern Part of Europe; that is: Description of Countries by Various Slavic Nations Inhabited; consisting of: Prussia, Duchy of Poznań, Prussian Silesia, Galicia, Republic of Cracow, Kingdom of Poland, and Lithuania" - it was written by Count Stanisław Plater (Stanisław Hrabia Plater - S. H. P.), who lived in years 1784 - 1851. The book was published in Wrocław (Breslau) in 1825:
Here is the scan of the title page of this book:
And here is portrait of Stanisław Plater:
Here is the data on linguistic composition of western parts of the Russian Empire (former parts of Poland-Lithuania) from Plater's 1825 book:
Vilna Governorate:
Lithuanians - 780,000
Jews - 180,000
Poles - 100,000
Russians - 80,000
Ruthenians - 50,000
Tatars - 10,000
Grodno Governorate:
Ruthenians - 470,000
Jews - 120,000
Lithuanians - 100,000
Poles - 80,000
Russians - 20,000
Tatars - 10,000
Białystok Region:
Ruthenians - 120,000
Poles - 50,000
Jews - 30,000
Minsk Governorate:
Ruthenians - 790,000
Jews - 150,000
Poles - 80,000
Russians - 50,000
Tatars - 30,000
Volhynian Governorate:
Ruthenians - 1,000,000
Jews - 200,000
Poles - 100,000
Podolia Governorate:
Ruthenians - 1,020,000
Jews - 220,000
Poles - 110,000
Moldavians and Armenians - 50,000
Kiev Governorate:
Ruthenians - 850,000
Jews - 150,000
Poles - 100,000
Mogilev Governorate:
Ruthenians - 700,000
Jews - 150,000
Poles - 50,000
Vitebsk Governorate:
Ruthenians - 500,000
Latvians - 120,000
Jews - 120,000
Poles - 30,000
Russians - 30,000
=================================
As you can see, this 1825 book clearly distinguishes Ruthenians (Rusini) from Russians (Rosjanie).
On the other hand, it does not distinguish Ukrainians from Belarussians - counting both as simply Ruthenians (Rusini).
It also doesn't distinguish Poles from Kashubians (in West Prussia) and Masurians (in East Prussia), counting all of them as Poles (Polacy).
Here is Plater's 1825 data for linguistic composition of East Prussia and West Prussia:
Scan for East Prussia:
"Rozkład ludności na języki" = "Division of population by language" /// "na wyznania" = "by religion"
East Prussia - total population - 1,080,000 - and when it comes to linguistic composition:
Germans - 600,000
Poles - 280,000
Lithuanians - 200,000
And when it comes to religion, his data for East Prussia is:
Protestants - 950,000
Catholics - 130,000
Scan for West Prussia:
West Prussia. Borders - to the east East Prussia, to the north Baltic Sea, to the west Pomerania, to the south Duchy of Poznań and Kingdom of Poland. Area - 450 square miles. Population 700,000 and around 1550 per each square mile.
Linguistic composition of West Prussia according to Plater:
Poles - 350,000
Germans - 330,000
Jews - 20,000
And when it comes to religions:
Protestants - 350,000
Catholics - 320,000
Israelites - 20,000
Mennonites - 10,000
======================================
And the remaining data on linguistic composition from Plater's 1825 book is:
Duchy of Poznań:
Poles - 640,000
Germans - 270,000
Jews - 70,000
Prussian Silesia:
Germans - 1,550,000
Poles - 600,000
Wends - 30,000
Jews - 20,000
Galicia:
Ruthenians - 1,800,000
Poles - 1,700,000
Jews - 300,000
Vlachs - 150,000
Germans - 50,000
Republic of Cracow:
Poles - 100,000
Jews - 10,000
Kingdom of Poland:
Poles - 2,700,000
Jews - 400,000
Germans - 300,000
Lithuanians - 200,000
Ruthenians - 100,000
=========================
=========================
I don't know (yet) what were Plater's primary sources when estimating / establishing these numbers quoted above, though.
I will try to figure it out.
=========================
=========================
Below all these numbers from Plater's 1825 book in a chart - I have some doubts regarding reliability of his numbers in several cases, though*:
Population in thousands:
*For example Plater's estimates for numbers of Polish-speakers in some regions seem to be lower than actual numbers.
I wonder what were Plater's primary sources for these calculations / estimations.
===================
===================
Edit:
Here is a digitalized version of Plater's 1825 book available to read online for free (you can also download pages when logged in):
http://www.polona.pl/item/1616957/2/
And here it will be available to download entire book for free soon, but at the moment it is not yet accessible:
http://obc.opole.pl/publication?id=1926&from=FBC
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Regarding German presence in Greater Poland (the Duchy of Poznań
:
Here is a translated excerpt from this book written by Stanisław Plater, published in 1825 in Wrocław (Breslau):
"(...) German peasants, living in western counties [of the Duchy of Poznań] and along the Netze River, originate from former and recent settlers; the former of them during the reign of the Vasa dynasty escaped before religious persecutions from Silesia to Greater Poland and settled in its western counties, the latter of them only after the first partition of the country during the reign of Frederick the Great founded their settlements along the Bydgoszcz Canal and both banks of the Netze River. Long dwelling amongst Polish people has caused a certain change in their ways and thus they can be considered as an intermediate link between Polish and German civilizations. -
German burghers, comprise the greater part of the population of cities in western borderland [of the Duchy of Poznań], that is in Rawicz, Leszno, Wschowa, Międzyrzecz and other smaller ones, as well as in cities along the Netze and the Canal, namely in Bydgoszcz (...)"
Here is the scan showing the original Polish-language version of this excerpt posted in English translation above:
As you can see above, Stanisław Plater describes the gradual Polonization of German settlers in Greater Poland - "(...) dwelling amongst Polish people has caused a certain change in their ways and thus they can be considered as an intermediate link between Polish and German civilizations (...)" - as he writes. That gradual and natural rather than planned and forcible Polonization of German immigrants was later slowed down by Bismarck's anti-Polish policies, ethnic cleansings and persecutions of Polish language and culture, as well as persecutions of Catholic people.
BTW - Stanisław Plater himself was one of descendants of Polonized Germans from Livonia (Dyneburg Voivodeship).
It is uncertain who was the original founder of the Livonian branch of Plater family (which later underwent Polonization). That was probably either Herebold de Bröel Plater (12th century guy) or Humpertus von dem Broele gennant Plate (13th century guy). Other Polonized German families from Livonia were for example Grotus, Hilzen, Wildenau, Manteuffel, Mohl, Reytan (also sometimes Reyten), Tyzenhaus, Weissenhof, etc., etc.
Tadeusz Rejtan (Reytan / Reyten) was also one of descendants of those Polonized Livonian Germans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Rejtan
"Rejtan" by Jan Matejko:
===============================
And here we can see Witold Kieżun - born in 1922 in Wilno - Polish Home Army soldier in 1944 Warsaw Uprising (see picture below), nowadays professor of economy in Warsaw (see the link to translated wikipedia article below). He is from one of thousands of Polish families descending from Polonized Lithuanians.
Witold Kieżun's first known 15th century ancestor was Vytautas Kaziunas - commander of one of Lithuanian units in the battle of Grunwald, 1410.
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Kie%C5%BCun
Kieżun as Polish Home Army soldier in Warsaw, 1944:
:Here is a translated excerpt from this book written by Stanisław Plater, published in 1825 in Wrocław (Breslau):
"(...) German peasants, living in western counties [of the Duchy of Poznań] and along the Netze River, originate from former and recent settlers; the former of them during the reign of the Vasa dynasty escaped before religious persecutions from Silesia to Greater Poland and settled in its western counties, the latter of them only after the first partition of the country during the reign of Frederick the Great founded their settlements along the Bydgoszcz Canal and both banks of the Netze River. Long dwelling amongst Polish people has caused a certain change in their ways and thus they can be considered as an intermediate link between Polish and German civilizations. -
German burghers, comprise the greater part of the population of cities in western borderland [of the Duchy of Poznań], that is in Rawicz, Leszno, Wschowa, Międzyrzecz and other smaller ones, as well as in cities along the Netze and the Canal, namely in Bydgoszcz (...)"
Here is the scan showing the original Polish-language version of this excerpt posted in English translation above:
As you can see above, Stanisław Plater describes the gradual Polonization of German settlers in Greater Poland - "(...) dwelling amongst Polish people has caused a certain change in their ways and thus they can be considered as an intermediate link between Polish and German civilizations (...)" - as he writes. That gradual and natural rather than planned and forcible Polonization of German immigrants was later slowed down by Bismarck's anti-Polish policies, ethnic cleansings and persecutions of Polish language and culture, as well as persecutions of Catholic people.
BTW - Stanisław Plater himself was one of descendants of Polonized Germans from Livonia (Dyneburg Voivodeship).
It is uncertain who was the original founder of the Livonian branch of Plater family (which later underwent Polonization). That was probably either Herebold de Bröel Plater (12th century guy) or Humpertus von dem Broele gennant Plate (13th century guy). Other Polonized German families from Livonia were for example Grotus, Hilzen, Wildenau, Manteuffel, Mohl, Reytan (also sometimes Reyten), Tyzenhaus, Weissenhof, etc., etc.
Tadeusz Rejtan (Reytan / Reyten) was also one of descendants of those Polonized Livonian Germans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Rejtan
"Rejtan" by Jan Matejko:
===============================
And here we can see Witold Kieżun - born in 1922 in Wilno - Polish Home Army soldier in 1944 Warsaw Uprising (see picture below), nowadays professor of economy in Warsaw (see the link to translated wikipedia article below). He is from one of thousands of Polish families descending from Polonized Lithuanians.
Witold Kieżun's first known 15th century ancestor was Vytautas Kaziunas - commander of one of Lithuanian units in the battle of Grunwald, 1410.
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Kie%C5%BCun
Kieżun as Polish Home Army soldier in Warsaw, 1944:
This is a sad thread and you are a sad person.
Moderator Action: Infracted for flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Moderator Action: Infracted for flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
What is Domen actually trying to prove with all this? I'm kind of losing track.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
In this particular case I wanted to prove that Ruthenians / Rusyns were considered as distinct from Russians. In general in this thread I wanted to prove that Ukrainian ethnos and Belarussian ethnos emerged within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, while Russian ethnos - within the Muscovite Tsardom.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
How do you plan to derive that from the opinions of upper-class census takers? You yourself note that these people seem incapable of distinguishing a Kashub from a Pole, so why is their judgement taken to be automatically sound when it comes to Ukranians and Belarussians?
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
But I consider this - i.e. counting Kashubs as Poles - as correct.
Because as a matter of vact overwhelming majority of Kashubs concsidered themselves as Poles, even though they spoke a dialect which is not so similar to literary Polish (in the century each rural region had its own dialect, but Kashub ethnolect is more distinct from literary Polish than dialects in most of other parts of Poland - hence Kashub is sometimes even considered as a separate language).
Especially considering, that so called "national consciousness" - Polish one - was actually stronger among Kashubs (when talking about late 1800s / early 1900s) than among Polish peasants from the area of Warsaw. This can be determined by results of elections (overwhelming majority of Kashubs voted for nationalistic National Democrats or Christian Democrats in first free elections in Poland after WW1 in 1922, while ethnic Polish peasants from former Russian and Austrian partitions frequently voted for People's or Peasants' parties as well as various Socialists or even Communists in most remote eastern regions):
Vast majority of Kashubs voted either for National Democracy or for Christian Democracy (which were parts of one coalition - Christian Association of National Unity). Christian Association of National Unity won elections in entire Western and North-Western Poland (including entire former Prussian Partition):
Blue - Christian Association of National Unity
Pink - Front of National Minorities of Poland
Light green - Polish People's Front "Piast"
Dark green - Polish People's Front "Liberation"
Red - Polish Socialist Party
Teal green - Peasants' Radical Front
Orange - Agrarian Ukrainian-Peasants' Party
Yellow - Committee of United National-Jewish Fronts
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6-qQKNR3X...7oOe8/s1600/wygrana+partia+w+danym+okręgu.bmp
Here is a quote which shows how low was national consciousness among some of ethnic Polish (i.e. Polish-speaking) peasants in the Russian-controlled Kingdom of Poland. Historian of economy Franciszek Bujak (1875 - 1953), in early 1900s visited many villages in the Congress Kingdom of Poland:
He wrote this about reaction of many of local ethnic Poles who lived there (translated from Polish):
"(...) When I ask them what is their nationality, they reply after thinking for a while, that they are Catholics, contrary to Jews or Lutherans. Some others of them reply that they are peasants. Finally some of them say, that they are "Emperor's people" and when I was convincing them, that they are Poles, they were becoming outraged and did not want to talk any longer. (...)"
"Emperor's people" - in original Polish text "cysarscy". Of course this about the Emperor of All Russia Nicholas II.
Conclusion:
Polish national identity was stronger among Kashub peasants from Prussia than among many ethnic Polish peasants from the Congress Kingdom.
I did not read his book carefully enough - now I see that he does use the name "Kashubs", but he counts Kashubs as a branch of Poles. And this is not really incorrect, IMO. Even in a German, Nazi-sponsored census in December 1939 in occupied Pomerelia, carried out to check "loyalty" of population, 188,000 declared Kashubian as their first language, of them 100,000 declared Polish nationality, 81,000 Kashub nationality and only 7,000 German nationality.
And this Nazi census is perhaps still falsified, considering that the Nazis were also falsifying censuses in Silesia - such an example:
Quotation regarding Nazi "Einwohnererfassunung" (population census) in occupied Polish part of Upper Silesia in early 1940:
"(...) Instead of at least partial regulation of nationality issues - which was the goal of occupants - Nazi population censuses produced results which were considered as highly doubtful even by highest authorities of the III Reich. (...) For example in Pszczyna County 98% of people declared themselves German in 1940, even though in the plebiscite of 1921 over 75% of inhabitants of this county voted for Poland. (...)"
Another thing is, that many people indeed declared themselves German - taking advantage of bilinguality - just to avoid persecutions by their new masters.
But census commissioners were also simply forcing many people to declare themselves German, or even changing their declarations on their own.
The census of 1940 in Silesia was carried out to determine who is Polish "subhuman" to be persecuted, and who is not. How great was Nazi astonishment, when it turned out, that there were - allegedly - no Poles in a region which in 1921 was so anti-German (75% voted Poland in LN's supervised plebiscite).
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
How am I not surprised?
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Well, you should check the results of recent 2011 census in Poland.
There was an option of double ethnic identification in this census. Out of 232,547 people who declare Kashubian identification (17,746 as first identification and 214,801 as only their second identification), as many as 215,784 declare also Polish identification (2011 census).
Only 17,746 declare Kashubian as first identification - of them just 16,377 as their only identification.
Well over two hundred thousand declare Polish identification as 1st and Kashubian only as 2nd.
Finally - only 386 people declare Kashubian and a non-Polish identification (perhaps Kashubian-German).
===================================
By comparison in 1921 census, out of 935,643 people in Pomeranian Voivodeship, nobody declared Kashubian identification.
But at that time there was no option for 1st and 2nd identification - only one for each person.
Among 935,643 people in Pomeranian Voivodeship in 1921 census, there were:
745,221 Catholics - of whom 721,230 declared Polish nationality / ethnicity and 23,366 declared German nationality / ethnicity.
186,224 Protestants - of whom 35,296 declared Polish nationality and 150,597 declared German nationality.
2,927 Jews - of whom 886 declared Polish nationality and 1,641 declared German nationality. And 388 Jews declared Jewish nationality.
There were also 1,271 people of other religions or non-religious. Of them 386 declared Polish and 167 German nationality. 722 - others.
There was an option of double ethnic identification in this census. Out of 232,547 people who declare Kashubian identification (17,746 as first identification and 214,801 as only their second identification), as many as 215,784 declare also Polish identification (2011 census).
Only 17,746 declare Kashubian as first identification - of them just 16,377 as their only identification.
Well over two hundred thousand declare Polish identification as 1st and Kashubian only as 2nd.
Finally - only 386 people declare Kashubian and a non-Polish identification (perhaps Kashubian-German).
===================================
By comparison in 1921 census, out of 935,643 people in Pomeranian Voivodeship, nobody declared Kashubian identification.
But at that time there was no option for 1st and 2nd identification - only one for each person.
Among 935,643 people in Pomeranian Voivodeship in 1921 census, there were:
745,221 Catholics - of whom 721,230 declared Polish nationality / ethnicity and 23,366 declared German nationality / ethnicity.
186,224 Protestants - of whom 35,296 declared Polish nationality and 150,597 declared German nationality.
2,927 Jews - of whom 886 declared Polish nationality and 1,641 declared German nationality. And 388 Jews declared Jewish nationality.
There were also 1,271 people of other religions or non-religious. Of them 386 declared Polish and 167 German nationality. 722 - others.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Yes, because 2011 is 1911 is 1811 is 1711 is 1611 is 1511. That is a true fact, evident to all, and not at all horsecrap.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
I know, I know. Of course you are right that 2011 is not 1911, which is not 1811, etc., etc.
But there is shortage of data for very old times, so we sometimes need to compare different years.
And regarding year 1511 - I am even more convinced, that there was not really such thing like "Kashubian language" at that time.
Here is my theory on this subject:
Kashubian language evolved into a separate language because after Kingdom of Poland lost the region of Pomerelia, Polish language in other regions continued to change, while isolated from other Polish people Kashub-speaking communities continued to speak their own archaic dialect, which did not change as fast and certainly not in the same direction as other Polish dialects (thus Kashubian was becoming more and more different from other Polish dialects).
Also influences of German language contributed to the fact that Kashubian is distinct from other Polish dialects.
In literary Polish language ("Hochpolnisch", as we can call it) around 3% of all words have German origins (loanwords). In modern Kashubian - 5%.
2% seems not much, but makes a difference.
Kashubian language also shows some influences (loanwords, etc.) of Baltic languages - especially of nowadays extinct Prussian language.
But - at the same time - Kashubian has much more similarities to Old Polish pre-16th century language than to other Medieval West Slavic languages.
According to late Polish linguist Jan Niecisław Baudouin de Courtenay (he was from a Polonized family of French aristocracy):
"Kashubian language is more Polish than literary Polish language itself".
He meant that Kashubian preserved more of original, archaic Old Polish vocabulary than literary Polish (Hochpolnisch / High Polish).
Maybe Baudouin de Courtenay exaggerates a bit when saying that Kashubian is "more Polish" than Polish itself - but there is at least a grain of truth in it.
Traitorfish - you're from Scotland which, as you explained in one thread, has a complicated history of language. So you surely understand such intricacies.
=================================
BTW - I have some Kashubian ancestors as well (from my maternal grandmother's side).
But there is shortage of data for very old times, so we sometimes need to compare different years.
And regarding year 1511 - I am even more convinced, that there was not really such thing like "Kashubian language" at that time.
Here is my theory on this subject:
Kashubian language evolved into a separate language because after Kingdom of Poland lost the region of Pomerelia, Polish language in other regions continued to change, while isolated from other Polish people Kashub-speaking communities continued to speak their own archaic dialect, which did not change as fast and certainly not in the same direction as other Polish dialects (thus Kashubian was becoming more and more different from other Polish dialects).
Also influences of German language contributed to the fact that Kashubian is distinct from other Polish dialects.
In literary Polish language ("Hochpolnisch", as we can call it) around 3% of all words have German origins (loanwords). In modern Kashubian - 5%.
2% seems not much, but makes a difference.
Kashubian language also shows some influences (loanwords, etc.) of Baltic languages - especially of nowadays extinct Prussian language.
But - at the same time - Kashubian has much more similarities to Old Polish pre-16th century language than to other Medieval West Slavic languages.
According to late Polish linguist Jan Niecisław Baudouin de Courtenay (he was from a Polonized family of French aristocracy):
"Kashubian language is more Polish than literary Polish language itself".
He meant that Kashubian preserved more of original, archaic Old Polish vocabulary than literary Polish (Hochpolnisch / High Polish).
Maybe Baudouin de Courtenay exaggerates a bit when saying that Kashubian is "more Polish" than Polish itself - but there is at least a grain of truth in it.
Traitorfish - you're from Scotland which, as you explained in one thread, has a complicated history of language. So you surely understand such intricacies.
=================================
BTW - I have some Kashubian ancestors as well (from my maternal grandmother's side).
Similar threads
