Polish - Soviet war 1919-1921

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Well IMHO in your last post you was closer to be objective.
I'm not sure whether Poland cooperated with nazis or not when Czechoslovakia was partially occupied, as for me, the situation was close to partition of Poland in 1939 (when Stalin recaptures nearly the same territories, taken by Poland after Polish-Soviet war)

And, comparing with nazis is offending not only for poles, but for russians as well. Even if you are talking about Stalin's regime.
 
And this quote war again caused that I waste my time instead of working. So I will not continue it. You had some valid points, however it seems to me that you're as well using arguments that suits you - like international recognition basing on what Red Army gave something that wasn't theirs...

I still think that:
1) Wilno was Polish city in 1920 and it should be included in Poland, so Piłsudski made it right
2) Wilno now is Lithuanian city and no one wants to change it
3) my comparation to civ4 was caused firstly because it is civ forum and secondly to ease the tensions here. Of course I do not think that it's an argument in our discussion
4) this point I'll send to you by PM 'cause it would be unfair to put it in public forum

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@red_elk
This is really interesting - comparation of seizing of very small piece of land that was still in dispute (both countries didn't recognized this part of border) that was done without any agreement with Germans is the same as planning an invasion together with Nazis (Ribbentrop-Molotov pact)...
To be honest I see no difference between Nazis and Soviets. I know it is making Russians nervous, but listen why:
1) both ideologies were similar: communistic and social
2) both had single-party 'democracy'
3) both had imperial policy towards neighbours
4) both commit enormous crimes against humanity (even communists killed more people)
5) both executed people basing on the same criteria: ethnicity, Soviets added also "class" criteria (worker - good, noble - bad)
6) both occupied many countries around it's core
 
And this quote war again caused that I waste my time instead of working. So I will not continue it.
Good call, I didn't get much else done today :lol:
You had some valid points, however it seems to me that you're as well using arguments that suits you - like international recognition basing on what Red Army gave something that wasn't theirs...

I still think that:
1) Wilno was Polish city in 1920 and it should be included in Poland, so Piłsudski made it right
2) Wilno now is Lithuanian city and no one wants to change it
3) my comparation to civ4 was caused firstly because it is civ forum and secondly to ease the tensions here. Of course I do not think that it's an argument in our discussion
4) this point I'll send to you by PM 'cause it would be unfair to put it in public forum
Well, Lithuania was an internationally recognized part of Imperial Russia, so an internationally recognized Russian government would actually have the right to cede Vilnius. That's why the Bolshevik treaty with Lithuania was valid according to the League of Nations.

But yes, I admit that I'm using arguments that suits me, but at least they're valid AFAIK. I'm certainly not objective in this question since I get this really immature feeling of moral indignation whenever a small nation get screwed by a larger, meaner nation that doesn't follow the rules. As if politics ever follows rules it can break! My weakness, I want people and countries to be better than they are.

You know, you could have broke me by mentioning a plebiscite as an acceptable solution of deciding the statehood of Vilnius. Since I based my reasoning on international law, I would have to admit it to be a good and acceptable solution even though such a plebiscite would probably have made the area Polish.

1) I strongly disagree, especially with the last part.
2) I agree.
3) Of course you didn't, and I shouldn't have taken that cheap shot against you.
4) Answered by PM. I don't think it was that flammable... :)
 
Just imagine the title of CNN news:

Vilnius/Wilno question caused Polish-Swedish quote war with the participation of Russian, Ukrainian, Chinese and American forces. In spite of hughe losses of worktime, the front line has stabilized. :)

Do you know, what question confuses me most of all?
Look, we have (according to LDeska):

Vilnius 1420 - a Lithuanian city
...
Wilno 1920 - a Polish city

Then, what's happened between 1420 and 1920 that turned a Lithuanian city into a Polish one?
 
@Wolfhart - OK, so let's agree that Piłsudski should run plebiscite in Wilno to decide - foreign observers come to look and the outcome should be obvious.
It's nothing strange that you want to support the weaker side - it's in our human nature and it's the reason why we as a spiece are so successful here on Earth. It's easy to see it when you watch a football game - intuitively you start to want the weaker team to win :) it's our nature... I have the same, maybe with exception when plays Brasil - I want them to win - they play so nice football :)

@General_CFR - I really don't know. We would have to ask some historian... for sure there was massive influx of Poles and Jews to Wilno in the time you mentioned.

P.S. Funny news :)
 
Finally, Poland didn't occupied Czechoslovakia together with Nazis - this is totally biased opinion. Poland and Czechoslovakia haven't agreed on very small part of their border (around Cieszyn city). The situation was unresolved as both sides treated other as a temporary entity :( Poland haven't cooperated with Nazis, there was no agreement about this part of land. Simply when Germans seized Czechoslovakia, Poles took this (realy small) part of land (we call it "Zaolzie").
I agree that it was not right, however saying that taking this small disputed part of land was "occupation of Czechoslovakia" is a word-abuse :) (it's not important here, but seized land had Polish majority)

Hitler forced Czechoslovakia to give part of land also to Poland and Hungary. The cooperation on Nazist occupation of Czechoslovakia is right term. The area was rightfully Czechoslovak after Polish-Czechoslovak agreement in 1919. Hungary took south Slovakia.
 
And my opinion about Polish-Soviet war? I think that Poland had selfish reasons and Russia/Soviet Union was very shaky. The Soviets just had shown real dictatorship so I believe that Polish attack wasnt right according international rules but it was rational and every country should support fight againist communists because people would live better in their states than in Soviet ones. Of course best but unrealistic process should be fight for whites and forcing white leaders to recognize Polish/Finnish/Baltic/Ukrainian/... claims after win, but white Russia was realy againist it.
 
@red_elk
This is really interesting - comparation of seizing of very small piece of land that was still in dispute (both countries didn't recognized this part of border) that was done without any agreement with Germans is the same as planning an invasion together with Nazis (Ribbentrop-Molotov pact)...

Yes, from our point of view this is the same thing - USSR waited until resistance of Poland against germans is over, and then red army take back territory, captured by Poland in previous war.

To be honest I see no difference between Nazis and Soviets. I know it is making Russians nervous, but listen why:
1) both ideologies were similar: communistic and social
2) both had single-party 'democracy'
3) both had imperial policy towards neighbours
4) both commit enormous crimes against humanity (even communists killed more people)
5) both executed people basing on the same criteria: ethnicity, Soviets added also "class" criteria (worker - good, noble - bad)
6) both occupied many countries around it's core

I know, this point of view is wide spread in eastern europe. But nobody of russians will agree with it (you know why, I suppose). I'm not sympathetic to communists, but I can agree only with your 2-nd point - USSR didn't have democracy at all. And 5-th point shows you don't know communistic ideology, it was internationalistic. Any state on the territory of former Russian empire simply can't afford nationalism - it will desintegrate.

I agree, may be there is no point in further discussion, we won't convince each other. My intention was to show your posts is half-truth and nationalistic (even you agreed that you are not objective), and there are another opinions.
 
And my opinion about Polish-Soviet war? I think that Poland had selfish reasons and Russia/Soviet Union was very shaky. The Soviets just had shown real dictatorship so I believe that Polish attack wasnt right according international rules but it was rational and every country should support fight againist communists because people would live better in their states than in Soviet ones. Of course best but unrealistic process should be fight for whites and forcing white leaders to recognize Polish/Finnish/Baltic/Ukrainian/... claims after win, but white Russia was realy againist it.

IMO Międzymorze was a very noble goal, as long as the union remained democratic and not overly dominated by Poland.

The main reason all of this happened was.. Russia. I don't blame anyone attacking Russia when she was weak, at the time, especially her former imperial 'properties'.
 
I don't blame anyone attacking Russia when she was weak

At least this words are honest :)
This is the reason why Russia is aiming to restore effective army, it seems somebody just hates us. I hope, there is not so much people who think like you.
 
At least this words are honest :)
This is the reason why Russia is aiming to restore effective army, it seems somebody just hates us. I hope, there is not so much people who think like you.

I said, at the time.

An empire that subjugates peoples and attemps to erase cultural identities shouldn't be surprised when former slaves come knocking with guns in their hands. The fact that Russia was weak at the time was simply a good opportunity, too good to pass up.

Today? I hope we have all learned our lessons, especially Russia.
 
Hahaha, if Russia is re-arming now to avoid an invasion by Poland, things are getting worse than I thought there :lol:

The war was one of aggression, pure and simple. Poland wanted a little empire (maybe a little revenge) and saw the perfect opportunity. It used the guise of "uniting all poles" as a way to convince it's citizens (then and now) that the war was justified, when it is really very similar to the tools used by other "bad nations" to do the same exact thing.
 
Hahaha, if Russia is re-arming now to avoid an invasion by Poland, things are getting worse than I thought there :lol:

The war was one of aggression, pure and simple. Poland wanted a little empire (maybe a little revenge) and saw the perfect opportunity. It used the guise of "uniting all poles" as a way to convince it's citizens (then and now) that the war was justified, when it is really very similar to the tools used by other "bad nations" to do the same exact thing.

If the U.S. lost new mexico in a war with Mexico (consider it a possibility;)), would it be such a crime to attempt to re-claim it when Mexico weakened?
 
IMO Międzymorze was a very noble goal, as long as the union remained democratic and not overly dominated by Poland.

The main reason all of this happened was.. Russia. I don't blame anyone attacking Russia when she was weak, at the time, especially her former imperial 'properties'.
Well its true that small slavic states were in dangerous position between German, Hungarian and Russian agressors and some kind of working alliance should stop or weaker Hitler and Stalin plans. Well there is problem that Pilsudski wasnt diplomat, the plan would looks as civil war in Soviet Union. And other countries hadnt much better leaders of democracy...totally unrealistic would be Hungarian participation, which will want to be leader or conqueror. The federation should be Mussolinis type of dictatorship or very shaky and weak democracy. Every nation have own ideas, Many Czechs were for example thinking about great Slavic states where is Russia included.

If the U.S. lost new mexico in a war with Mexico (consider it a possibility;)), would it be such a crime to attempt to re-claim it when Mexico weakened?

You have strange and dangerous thoughts. After it should be half of world be in war and its would be fully moral? England will want US area? Mexico texas? Its better examples.
 
According to your logic, if modern Russia will attack, for example, Ukraine, this aggression will be justified, because there are many russians live, and this territory belonged to Russia for hundreds years.

Again; Soviets themselves declared that partages of Poland were illegal and were cancelled. Both Poland and USSR were new states, and relationship between them, including the boarder, was yet to be defined.





Several hundred years ago maybe, but not at that time. The Ukrainian people weren't very appreciative of it.



Thats twisted logic. It was Poland that started the war.

Yes, still at that time. ukrainians weren't fond of soviet armies as well. Poland entered central Ukraine as ally of independent ukrainian state, fighting against Soviet agression. I see nothing wrong in defending one state's independance.


Poland also took over Vilnius about the same time. There was a coup there that produced a puppet state that Poland later annexed. Vilnius city was mostly Yiddish and Polish speaking but I believe the countryside was mostly Lithuanian-speaking. It was a really complicated situation at the time (there were Belorussians and Russians involved as well) which was mostly resolved after World War II in the same manner as a lot of changes at the time: forced expulsion of inconvenient ethnic groups; in this case the Poles by the Soviets. The Jewish population had been annihilated during World War II.

Vilnius was mostly polish, with Jews the second biggest group. The surrounding region was mostly polish, as it still is today...

When Poland wants to revert the partition, you call it "uprising". When soviets do the same, you call it "aggression". Why?

1) Uprising is against a ruling state. Look it up.
2) Soviets themselves declared partages illegal and void, therefore making polish rule west to Kiev and Smolensk legal...

So invading Ukraine and Bealarus which didn't contain ethnic Poles wasn't aggression?

They did contain many ethnic Poles, in many places a majority.


Must be the very central city core then, since the census of 1909 by the Polish researcher Eduard Czyński found the population of the Vilnius region to be 46.1% Belorussians, 23% Lithuanians and 10% Poles [Eduard Czyński, "Etnograficzno-statystyczny zarys liczebnosci rossiedlenia ludnosci polskiej. Warsawa, 1909"].

This was probably done according to official russian statistics, being very interested in making number of Poles as low as possible, and not at all reliable, even in comparison to Austrian and Prussian numbers when it comes to Poles on their territory. Russians were routinely assigning Poles as (catholic) Belarusians - You can see it on the maps from the era, they show all the polish regions in the Empire, apart from Kingdom, as belarusian, and it is about Vilnius region as well as Podlasie (Bialystok region). That it was false You can say even comparing it to post-ww2 soviet maps, which clearly show Vilnius region as majorly polish...

So? Whatever the Bolshevik intention was, this doesn't change the fact that Vilnius historically AND de jure was a Lithuanian city which had never been Polish (not even during the time of the Commonwealth).

Of course you don't.
First: I do not contest that the Poles were the largest ethnic group of the city of Vilnius. I question if this is true regarding the whole Vilnius region occupied by Poland. Let's be clear that the city of Vilnius is a separate geographical entity that's constitutes only one part of the Vilnius region.

First, You are not aware what Grand Duchy of Lithuania was. Its official language was belarusian, and later polish, not lithuanian. its citizens would never call themselves Poles, because a Pole ment citizen of Crown of Kingdom of Poland. But its gentry became completely polonised, cities too, and large part of the peasantry as well. The situation I usually compare to what has happened with silesian, pomeranian duchies, and Meklemburg as well. They were originally polish (Meklemburg polabian); but with time, they became german states, just like Grand Duchy became a polish state.
That's why someone could consider himself a Lithuanian and adherent of polish culture. That's why we learn from our national epopee that our fatherland is Lithuania. Pilsudski, leader of Poland from the time of the soviet-polish war in question, considered himself Lithuanian as well.

And yes, the entire region around Vilnius was, and to some extent still is, majorly polish. Lwow was a different case, being polish exclave.
 
And you're not even consistent in your point of view: you see no wrong in occupying large parts of Belorussia and Ukraine where the Poles were a minority, and in the west occupying lesser parts of Germany with German majority (read the whole census of 1931!). If Poland could be a multi-ethnic state with a third of its citizens being non-Polish, why couldn't Lithuania?

Then the Lithuanians may now sleep peacefully at night :)

Where, according to You, Germans were a majority in Poland except for some exclaved cities?

Oh, and Poland actually proposed to let Vilnius be in Lithuania, but on condition that either polish would become second official language of it, or Lithuania should be divided into national cantons, like Switzerland. But Lithuania denied that. Young lithuanian nationalism was pretty strong, as it still is.
Lithuania demanded Wilno - Vilnius, which had a percentage of Lithuanians resembling the one of Poles in Kijow - Kiev or Wroclaw - Breslau at this time. Actually in a memoir of a prominent polish politician of this time lithuanian demands for Vilnius were considered as absurd as polish towards Breslau would be. Vilnius was one of the biggest centres of polish culture, while lithuanian cultural life there was non-existant.
Poland had 1/3 minorities, but a third of this number were Jews, who mostly knew polish, and for many of whom it was the first language. Another couple of percent were people from Polesie, who didn't declare any nationality at all in the polls. Lithuanians, had they swallowed all they demanded, would become a minority in their own state with strong and self-aware polish and german minorities. At best it'd end up as Lebanon.
 
Again; Soviets themselves declared that partages of Poland were illegal and were cancelled. Both Poland and USSR were new states, and relationship between them, including the boarder, was yet to be defined.

And Poland started a war to define new borders. My point, it was aggression. Do you think, if Ukraine declared that partition of USSR was illegal, Russia will have rights to attack them?

ukrainians weren't fond of soviet armies as well. Poland entered central Ukraine as ally of independent ukrainian state, fighting against Soviet agression. I see nothing wrong in defending one state's independance.

Poland supported forces of Petliura. It was one of fighting sides of civil war, and didn't represent even all those ukrainians, which wanted independance. And there was no soviet aggression, because there was no USSR yet.

1) Uprising is against a ruling state. Look it up.
2) Soviets themselves declared partages illegal and void, therefore making polish rule west to Kiev and Smolensk legal...

There was no ruling state in Ukraine. Actually, entire Russia was a big uprising at those time. The 2-nd point is very interesting :) . What's reasons to declare territories to the east of Curzon line as polish? Do you have another arguments except that Poland owned it for a long time and there were many poles lived?
 
Do you think, if Ukraine declared that partition of USSR was illegal, Russia will have rights to attack them.

I have to chime in here, because you do not understand the previous point, or you are being obtuse on purpose.

If the USSR declared that the formation of the USSR and the annexation of the Ukraine was illegal, and the treaty leading up to these events, null and void, then the Ukraine would have every right to seek to re-establish her old borders.

Now that's a proper analogy.
 
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