POLL: Newton's or ToE? With FREE or SABER?

[Paul#42]

Chosing Option 2 is defintely the end of our alliance with FREE. SABER would be happy.
The more I think about it, the more I favor that option.
But that's just me. As the First Chairman this is the most important decision of my reign so I need to ask:

What does the Council think?

Please discuss and think it over carefully. It took me some time to realize that this is the one decision that will influence our game for the next hundred turns. It might change the game completely.

 

[Hasdrubal Barca]

Finish Cope´s, the extra techs from ToE aren´t that big a deal, they can be traded..
EDIT: I meant Newton´s

 

[Paul#42]

It's not just the extra techs.
It's Hoovers, tech lead, break with FREE, Joint Venture with SABER...

And by the way: It's Newton's, Cope's already in da house. edit: I meant it that way:
Please take your time to think it over. Unless I'm paranoid (please tell me) this is one of the most important decisions of the game.

 

[tomasjj]

Oh...how I would love to rattle Free's cage with this switch. It might also open the game up a bit.

IF we could pull it off that is...

I have been less than pleased with FREE's commitments toward our alliance lately.

 

[Paul#42]

Of course we'd have to make sure that SABER is not riding two horses here and trades Medicine to FREE for Electricity right away...

They might well be able to do it, I recon both of FREE and us have been talking to SABER more than to each other recently...

The situation reminds me of the Diplomacy game where we also had an unbreakable alliance (Austria-Russia) that made the game boring...
Infidelity peps up one's life at times.

 

[donsig]

I'm not ready to vote yet. I mentioned in another thread that I think it's a good idea to ask for an extension.

Buidling ToE might not be the end of our alliance with FREE. They only want ToE as a means to Hoover. If we ultimately refused to trade techs with them and went on to build Hoover then our alliance is done for sure.

If we build ToE do we kiss Newton goodbye? If we build ToE and don't strike a quick deal with FREE afterwards wouldn't they use their ToE prebuild to take Newtons?

And we'd have distress in our relationship with FREE right away since we'd have to begin researching scientific method. Yeah, I can see now this would really involve us going behind FREE's back which would seriously compromise our chances of continuing the MAAP alliance.

We still have to consider that GONG must be dealt with somehow. We are in no position to stop GONG by ourselves. Rather than thinking about discarding our alliance with FREE in favor of SABER perhaps it is time we thought more about a BABA (Brains Against Braun Alliance). With SABER so close to us anyway and FREE threatening to leave us behind maybe we need a three way MAAP for the industrial age. Or a three way MAAP should be part of a BABA where we fight BABE and FREE and SABER invade GONG. The goal would be to neutralize the GLET. By having both of them attack GONG the risk of one completely conquering GONGland is lower - since they'd theoretically have to fight each other for complete control of GONG's homeland. That let's us choose sides.

What would a three way MAAP look like? There is scientific method, replaceable parts and the corporation up next to research not to mention sanitation, communism and espionage. After the corporation refining and steel open up/ It seems we could all three be working away at IA techs and tooling up to deal with the GLET.

I'm leaning towards sticking with Newton's.

 

[peter grimes]

I don't know if you're still around, Paul - but we should definitely ask for an extension here.

The fact that Free has taken weeks to respond to our letters pulls me in the direction of Saber.

Until I hear some persuasive arguments as to why we should stick with Free, I vote to pinch TofE and cast our lot with Saber

EDIT: x-post with Donsig. Interesting ideas there. I'll be thinking about them

 

[Aigburth]

So what exactly are we proposing, something along these lines?

1) Finish Industrialization and swap with Free for Electricity in 2 turns time
2) Trade for medicine from Saber in around 2 or 3 turns
3) Stall Free so they start on Replaceable Parts or Switch off research altogether
4) Research Scientific Method
5) Complete Scientific Method and switch pre-build to complete ToE
6) Take Atomic theory and Electronics from ToE
7) Build Hoovers to deny Free
8) Continue tech cooperation with Saber

I did some very rough calculations, if we micromanage The Chamber to maximize shields and rail all The Chambers tiles this turn then we can build Hoovers in 23 turns (building a factory seems to take the same amount of time in total). To beat us Free would have to research medicine, Scientific Method, Atomic Theory (very expensive) and Electronics within those 23 turns, don't forget they have an SGL so don't have to worry about a pre-build. These calculations were very rough so we may be able to shave some turns here or there.

 

[Paul#42]

Especially we could shave a lot off the Hoover's build time.
We can part rush the factory in The Chamber and if we don't care too much about unit upkeep (drafting in our size-seven-cities) we could also part-rush a coal plant there. Two turns.
That would double our production to ~60 and give us Hoovers in ~13+2. No chance for FREE.

Funny thing: If we do it that way, we do not violate anything (written), if they take Newton's, they violate MAAP II. Of course they could argue (at the UN court) that we violated by not researching MT...

Yes, I will ask for an extension.

 

[General_W]

Yowza. Good call on asking for the extension.

Stealing ToE is only a good idea if we're suddenly committed to switching alliances to Saber.

Unfortunately, I don't see Dutchfire of Chamnix online to try to feel them out. But if history is any indication, Saber would leap at the opportunity.

Grabbing the ToE will almost certainly cost us Newtons, unless FREE goes for Universal Suffrage or something equally not as good. At the very least, we could expect to lose Newtons to Saber or GONG, who I suspect at least one of them is making an attempt for it.

As I mentioned in the FREE embassy, stealing the ToE is pretty much guaranteed to make us the bad-guys in FREE land… treaty or no treaty. It'd be much better for Saber to do the stealing.
If people agree – I'll fire off a quick PM and e-mail to Chamnix and Dutchfire to see if I can get a response from them on whether or not they've got a pre-build going.

Dear Chamnix and Dutchfire,

There's been some "developments" in our negotiations with FREE, and I can't say much right now – but if you guys currently have a wonder pre-build going that you'd be willing to consider diverting into a play for the Theory of Evolotion – this would improve the likelihood that we'd switch teams to make an alliance with you.
Sadly, we need an answer right away (before we play the current save) – so if you could let us know, that'd be great!
Thanks
…

Thoughts on that?

Even if Saber doesn't have a pre-build, that doesn't mean I'm necessarily opposed to switching alliances. It just means we should be realistic about how upset FREE is going to be over it.

 

[Paul#42]

Okay, no harm in asking them (unless FREE finds out).

We should add that ToE should be finished in a max twelve (rather ten) turns from now.

Nevertheless FREE would clearly see that we are playing false if we keep Medicine longer than necessary - or get it way after we gave Electricity to SABER and SABER got Medicine (FREE won't know who of us got it).

So there is no way to let SABER play the bad guy role in this game (unless FREE is sleeping deeply )...
But we would get Newton before...

 

[General_W]

I'll send a note off right now.
Even if we eventually decide against this, there's no harm done. Saber already knows we've seriously considered switching in the past.

Dear Chamnix and Dutchfire,

There's been some "developments" in our negotiations with FREE, and I can't say much about it right now – but if you guys currently have a wonder pre-build going that you'd be willing to consider diverting into a play for the Theory of Evolution – this would improve the likelihood that we'd switch teams to make an alliance with you.

Specifically, we'd need you to be able to finish the ToE in the next 10-11 turns.

Sadly, we need an answer right away (before we play the current save) – so if you could let us know, that'd be great!
Thanks!

General_W

Sent to Chamnix via PM and Dutchfire via gmail.


I think we're much more likely to get away with Saber being the bad guy than you seem to think Paul. I highly doubt FREE is paying close enough attention to notice that 2 teams have gotten Medicine.

You're right that we can't delay forever… but we can delay for quite a while. They can't know for sure how long it's going to take us to "research" Medicine… and since they can't be bothered to respond to our letter, I think we can stall quite effectively by just not responding to them either.
When Saber is far enough along on their pre-build, we just state clearly to FREE that we want out of the MAAP III negotiations, and then refuse to trade them medicine, which we've never promised them.
They'll have to research that themselves and then Scientific method (8 turns, minimum) during which time Saber "steals" the ToE.
FREE will be mad at us, sure. But not nearly as mad as they would be if we stalled them AND stole the ToE.

 

[General_W]

Got a response from Chamnix already!

I'm just posting it here, to try to keep our discussion focused in this thread.

Dear General_W:

I received your message and immediately posted it in our forums. I'm sure you understand that I cannot answer that question without getting some input from my teammates, but we understand the urgency and will reply ASAP.

Chamnix

Analysis: I think this is a good sign that Saber has at least some kind of pre-build going… though it's hard to speculate on how advanced it might be. If they had nothing going, there'd be no harm in saying so.

So now we want to hear how close they are!
If they can get it done in time, we can get BOTH Newton and ToE!

If they can't finish in time- we'll have to make the hard call of jumping ship even though it means giving up Newton and really angering FREE… or else continuing to wait on FREE's response and letting any dreams of stealing the ToE/Hoover die.

 

[General_W]

Reposted from the FREE Embassy thread:

I vote SABER and ToE - but we should be really sure that FREE doesn't get Medicine from SABER first. Any chance we could glean that info from dutchfire et al? If we tell them that we'll side with them throughout the IA, as long as they don't trade Medicine to FREE, that should be a good incentive for them to keep it close. Better a long-term agreement than a one-time deal, no?

If we switch to Saber, I think it will have to be under the framework of a MAAP type deal – preventing both sides from executing non-approved trades.

Perhaps I should start drafting a SCIAA (Saber Council Industrial Age Alliance) treaty document?

P.S. Tripple post!

 

[donsig]

We don't necessarily need SABER to send us medicine right away, do we? Did we ever tell FREE about the medicine trade?

The upshot seems to be that even if we switch to SABER we should go ahead and complete Newtons. My vote is leaning that way.

EDIT: I don't think we ever discussed our SABER medicine trade with FREE. I saw nothing about it in the last two notes we sent FREE.

 

[General_W]

@Donsig - you're correct. We can totally not accept medicine for the time being, and FREE will be none the wiser. Very excellent point.

Also, as promised, here's a draft of a SCIAA agreement…
If we continue down this road.

Spoiler :

Dear Saber Friends (and future Allies?),

We'd like to propose a sweeping alliance to propel both of our great peoples to new heights, and hopefully thwart the juggernaut of team FREE.

We'd like to propose an agreement we're calling the SCIAA – Saber-Council Industrial Age Alliance.

Here's the proposed details:

----------------------------------
Draft SCIAA

I. Peace

• Team Saber and The Council agree to guaranteed peace with each other through the Industrial Age and beyond.
• This peace may only be terminated by a "15 turns notice of intent to cancel" letter. This letter may not be sent by either party until after the swap of our Modern Era Bonus techs.

II. Technology Plan

• Team Saber and The Council agree to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
• Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
• Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
• The following Technology Balance agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.

Technology Balance

Team SABER

• Military Tradition (1920)
• Medicine (3000)
• Scientific Method (3000)
• Replaceable Parts (4200)
• Atomic Theory (TOE)
• Electronics (TOE)
• Refining (4800)
• Combustion (4800)
• Flight (5400)

The Council

• Nationalism (3600)
• Industrialization (3600)
• Electricity (4200)
• Sanitation (2700)
• Corporation (3000)
• Steel (4200)
• Motorized Transport (4200)
• Mass Production (4200)
• Amphibious War (3600)

* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

Team Saber Total Beakers = 27,120
Council Total Beakers = 33,300
​

III. Balancing the Industrial Age Wonders

• The Council is contributing 6,180 beakers more, is giving up the 2 free chances at an SGL from the ToE, and is risking the brunt of team FREE's wrath due to our switch, therefore, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam in compensation.
• Team Saber will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder, should they desire it.

IV. Defense Against All

• If either team is invaded during the Industrial Age, the team that hasn’t been invaded will provide 100 gold per turn to the besieged team for the duration of the invasion, or up to 1500 gold total (15 turns), whichever is less.
• If either team is invaded, both teams will be relieved of their obligations to continue research at top speed on the tech plan, in recognition of the enhanced need for gold. When the invasion is over, normal obligations will resume – but both teams pledge to be generous towards the other if the tech balance needs to be adjusted after the invasion due to setbacks from the fighting.
• For purposes of the Defense-Against-All, an “invasion” will be defined as any enemy units on shore, or waiting immediately off-shore.
• Each team will immediately notify the other of any sightings of potentially hostile foreign ships with their (approximate) locations and heading. Each team will also notify the other if any foreign team begins making aggressive demands or sends other signals as a possible prelude to war.
• As a defense against other's catching us in our technology lead, both teams agree to henceforth not trade, sell, or otherwise transfer any technology to foreign teams without the express permission of the other ally.
• If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.
• Both teams agree to give the other first preference in any luxury resource trades.

V. Spoils of War

• Should war come, Team Saber has a right to the lands currently occupied by team GONG.
• The Council has a right to the lands currently occupied by the evil team BABEs.
• The lands of team FREE will be up for grabs or re-negotiation once the Alliance possesses both Bombers and Marines.

END DRAFT
-------------------------

We're eager to hear what you think!

All the Best,
Your Allies,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

Note: If Saber went for this, it would be an extra good deal for us, since we'll have already executed a trade of Industrialization for Electricity with FREE by the time this is signed.

If Saber wants this signed before the Indus/Electric trade, we'd have to re-word it – obviously. That could be a little tricky, but totally doable.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Note – it may be worthwhile to point out to Saber that if their prebuild is for Newton, they're not going to get it anyway. Ditto the ToE and Hoover, thanks to FREE's prebuild and their SGL.
Might change their perspective if they know they're about to be shut-out.

 

[Niklas]

Me like!

 

[donsig]

I see no problem sending SABER the SCIAA proposal. I think we might want to put replaceable parts on our side though. If we enter into this deal I think we'd want to research replaceable parts next. There are three techs the same price on our side that it could be swapped for.

 

[Niklas]

Good thinking donsig, but unfortunately that won't work. There would be nothing for SABER to research after SM while waiting for us to finish Corporation, and then we'd be stuck again at Combustion. The fastest way forward would be if we could research in parallel SM-Corporation > Steel-Refining > Combustion-RP. That means delaying RP for a while, but I think the benefits of doing so are greater than the drawbacks.

 

[donsig]

OK, I see your point. Does SABER already have military tradition? A better question though concerns building ToE. Since I'm not a good micromanager I usually have a turn or two (or more) while I'm waiting for ToE to finish where I turn off research and collect gold. I wonder if it's too much to ask SABER to cut us in on any gold they accumulate this way?