It's my opinion that the scout line lacks continuity with its promotions. Each new scout line unit drops 1-4 promotions (which also usually to stay on upgrade), and adds another 1-4 more. By the end, if you have managed to keep some older scouts, you can have over a dozen different free promotions from earlier eras.
Spoilercurrent scout line units and their free promotions :
Promotions that do not appear on the unit immediately before or after, or only appear on 1 unit in Bold
Pathfinder - Ignore Terrain Costs, penalty vs barbs, XP from Reconnaissance
Scout - Ignore Terrain Costs, penalty vs barbs, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance
Explorer - Ignore Terrain Costs, Brute Force, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance, Defense while Embarked, Vision while Embarked, Can Cross Deep Ocean Early
Zeppelin - Ignore Terrain Costs, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance, XP from Spotting, Hover, Extra Sight
Paratrooper - Treasure Hunter, Paradrop, No Movement to Pillage, XP from pillage, Bonus vs. Siege
Special Forces - Treasure Hunter, Paradrop, No Movement to Pillage, Amphibious, Defense while Embarked, Vision while Embarked, Bonus vs Gun
XCOM - Treasure Hunter, (Big) Paradrop, No Movement to Pillage
Special forces is an especially odd duck, because it is a scout UnitCombat that gets scout promotions, but upgrades to Mechanized Infantry instead of XCOM. It has 4 unique, free promotions, which is a bit much.
So the only continuous promotion in the whole line is Treasure Hunter. With the paradrop units, I don't see what the harm of letting them keep Ignore Terrain Costs could be. All the older scout units you upgrade keep it on upgrade, it's foundational to the unit line, and the promotion line sort of relies on it. Ignoring terrain cost also seems thematically relevant to paratroopers and special forces moving behind enemy lines, which Special forces tries to approximate with 4 unique promotions instead of 1 consistent 1.
There's a bloat of free promotions, almost all of them stay on upgrade, so it turns into a free promotion collection bonanza on a few legacy units, if you can keep them for a few eras.
There's also a very small, but very serious corner-case where there is no melee unit in the game that can cross mountains except Inca. This means that if Inca manage to found inside a 6-tile ring of mountains, there is absolutely no way for anyone else to take it. You can bomb it with air units, or indirect fire it down to zero HP, but the only two units that can move into mountains that are available to everyone are Zeppelins and Helicopters, and they both have ranged attacks, so they can't take a city.
I propose to change the scout promotion lines and the free promotions on many of the later units to cut down on all the bloat, while keeping some abilities more consistent, and having roughly the same total promotions on the units overall.
SpoilerScout line promotion reworks :
Trailblazer III rework
+10% CS outside Friendly lands Allows Embarkation
Can enter Mountain Tiles
Can use Enemy Roads
Survivalism III
Heals every turn regardless of action Does not cost movement to Pillage
XP from Pillage now given to all units from Industrial onward
Bonus vs Siege now given to all units from Paratrooper onward
All Scout line units now ignore terrain cost (previously lost on paratrooper onward)
No cost to pillage removed from paratrooper/special forces and XCOM (moved to Survivalism III)
Embarkation vision, embarkation defense, amphibious, and bonus vs gunpowder removed from Special Forces
XP from scouting no longer available to scout units (was free promotion on Zeppelin, proposing to change to commando. See other thread.)
Embarkation Defense now lost on upgrade from Explorer (Embarked Vision stays on upgrade)
The hope is to slim down the massive diversity of promotions that turned upgrading scouts into a promotion bonanza, but keeping 1-2 of the more interesting/distinct bonuses to move forward.
SpoilerNew, proposed free promotions overview :
Promotions that do not appear on the unit immediately before or after, or only appear on 1 unit in Bold
Pathfinder - Ignore Terrain Costs, penalty vs barbs, XP from Reconnaissance
Scout - Ignore Terrain Costs, penalty vs barbs, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance
Explorer - Ignore Terrain Costs, Brute Force, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance, Defense while Embarked, Vision while Embarked, Can Cross Deep Ocean Early
Commando (see other thread) - Ignore Terrain Costs, Brute Force, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance, XP from pillaging,Commando
Paratrooper - Ignore Terrain Costs, Treasure Hunter, Paradrop, XP from pillage, Bonus vs. Siege
Special Forces - Ignore Terrain Costs, Treasure Hunter, Paradrop, XP from pillage, Bonus vs. Siege
XCOM - Ignore Terrain Costs, Treasure Hunter, (Big) Paradrop, XP from pillage, Bonus vs. Siege
Special forces is an especially odd duck, because it is a scout UnitCombat that gets scout promotions, but upgrades to Mechanized Infantry instead of XCOM. It has 4 unique, free promotions, which is a bit much.
So the only continuous promotion in the whole line is Treasure Hunter. With the paradrop units, I don't see what the harm of letting them keep Ignore Terrain Costs could be. All the older scout units you upgrade keep it on upgrade, it's foundational to the unit line, and the promotion line sort of relies on it. Ignoring terrain cost also seems thematically relevant to paratroopers and special forces moving behind enemy lines, which Special forces tries to approximate with 4 unique promotions instead of 1 consistent 1.
Some of the less controversial (in my opinion) changes that I want to spotlight:
Why have bonus vs siege and bonus vs gun on consecutive units with no overlap? It seems this could be kept more mechanically and thematically consistent at bonus vs siege (special forces sent to take out high-value targets in surgical strikes, not scrapping with front-line units)
I can see why XP from recon gets dropped after the map is completely explored, but I think it would be consistent with the scout line to keep an alternative XP source on all units. Hence, my suggestion to have XP on pillage for all later units
Movement to pillage seems consistent with survivalism's other bonuses (hp recovery). I suggested in the OP that no movement to pillage could be moved off the ultra-late units and moved to a promotion tree unlock to make it available earlier. It could be on either Survivalism II or III -- I think the heal every turn could stand well enough on its own -- but I had to choose somewhere.
@azum4roll suggested that maybe an Ice movement promotion would be good to have. I think this is a fine idea as a leaf promotion locked behind an Industrial tech, like ambush or air defense promotions. Ice walking can't be available immediately or it can be used to hop continents before deep ocean embark is unlocked.
So I've tried these out in PADs modmod and like all of them with one exception:
Embarkation vision, embarkation defense, amphibious, and bonus vs gunpowder removed from Special Forces
The SF is an expensive and "special" unit, and I think its promotions are quite appropriate for what the unit both thematically represents (your navy seal + green barret + spetsnaz type forces) and just the general power of the unit itself. I think even with the additional Bonus vs Siege this line would offer, that the SF does not suddenly become OP, so I think it can accommodate that change with minimal issues.
The SF is an expensive and "special" unit, and I think its promotions are quite appropriate for what the unit both thematically represents (your navy seal + green barret + spetsnaz type forces) and just the general power of the unit itself. I think even with the additional Bonus vs Siege this line would offer, that the SF does not suddenly become OP, so I think it can accommodate that change with minimal issues.
I'm also proposing they get XP to pillage and ignore movement cost. My proposal would have the SF gain 3 promotions and lose 5 (no movement to pillage too). I think the embarkation bonuses make more sense as a "special sauce" for the explorer. I can see an argument for free amphibious. However, my opinion is that the bonus vs gun actually hurts their flavor. The forces you describe (spetsnaz, Green Beret, etc.) would be wasted on a firefight against frontline infantry; you want them cutting behind enemy lines and going after higher value/softer targets like siege weapons and materiel lines.
I'm trying to grasp the issue proposed here. So is it argued the scout line is OP, or that they get a plethora of promotions that overall don't make it all that exciting?
Even though they get all these promotions it doesn't really make them anymore sustainable against the standard melee units. Is there another point I'm missing?
However, my opinion is that the bonus vs gun actually hurts their flavor. The forces you describe (spetsnaz, Green Beret, etc.) would be wasted on a firefight against frontline infantry; you want them cutting behind enemy lines and going after higher value/softer targets like siege weapons and materiel lines.
Thing is, even with this bonus, Special Forces are not dominant against infantry, the core infantry promotions and a lot of extra hp means that in a straight up fight, I still prefer infantry (ESPECIALLY with flanking). Its just SF can actually hold their own and do all the special stuff.
I'm trying to grasp the issue proposed here. So is it argued the scout line is OP, or that they get a plethora of promotions that overall don't make it all that exciting?
I'll give my own thought here, basically as an "endorsement" of the concept. PADs proposal standardizes and streamlines a lot of the scout line. Right now, the promotions kind of bounce around. Unit X has an ability, Unit Y losses it, etc. PADs proposal removes a lot of that, giving a more natural progression from one unit to the next.
The proposal also allows the lower tech scout units some access to the traditional higher tech abilities through high promotions, giving them more options.
I do have one question, what is the point of embarkation on TB III? Is that so a person who doesn't get fishing early can still hop around?
I'm trying to grasp the issue proposed here. So is it argued the scout line is OP, or that they get a plethora of promotions that overall don't make it all that exciting?
There's a lack of intelligibility and consistency. At some point the scout line loses all its special abilities and gains totally new ones in a constant churn of promotions. Over the course of the game, the scout line loses all identity, anchored only by its promotion tree.
I don't think the scout line being too strong or too weak is at issue here. The problem I am trying to point out is that there are just way too many different promotions, and many of them contribute very little to the effectiveness of any single unit, so it turns into a giant mess, with a promotions list that is so long it runs off the screen.
I'm also proposing they get XP to pillage and ignore movement cost. My proposal would have the SF gain 3 promotions and lose 5 (no movement to pillage too). I think the embarkation bonuses make more sense as a "special sauce" for the explorer. I can see an argument for free amphibious. However, my opinion is that the bonus vs gun actually hurts their flavor. The forces you describe (spetsnaz, Green Beret, etc.) would be wasted on a firefight against frontline infantry; you want them cutting behind enemy lines and going after higher value/softer targets like siege weapons and materiel lines.
Well, w.r.t. the problem of there just being way too many promotions overall, Special Forces is the single biggest contributor to that problem, with 7 promotions in all, including 4 unique promotions that don't come before or after it.
What do people propose is "acceptable" for SF to have in their toolbox, if they are also going to get XP on pillage, ignore terrain cost, and bonus vs siege? If they only lose No Movement to Pillage, then they would have 9 free promotions and we've only made the problem worse.
The perceived problem is worse, its not like the game breaks when a unit gets X free promotions. I am perfectly fine with a streamlined scout line (as you have proposed) and the consequence is the SF just gets loaded up with freebies, it just means the SF looks cooler, because its freakin SPECIAL FORCES!!!
If you really wanted to remove the +25% vs Gunpowder they will probably need at least a +15% straight CS buff, but of course that has other consequences and issues, and the CS balance of the unit feels pretty good right now, I don't think its worth messing with that just to appease an aesthetic desire.
But that's just my opinion so let me stop hogging the thread and let other people voice their thoughts before I throw back in.
I'm fine with changing some of the jank in later scout units. Zeppelins in particular are a bizarre unit but the rest work out quite well in my experience. I don't see a reason to disrupt the core promotions or earlier scouting units.
If you want to cut promotions you could just condense them. Or outright delete things like treasure hunter. Real-game example: my explorer found a ruins, instead of a regular unit, so I got an extra 7 in the medieval era. That's not even 1/20th of my per turn culture. Also for several of the ancient ruins categories it does nothing at all (a free tech is still just a free tech).
The perceived problem is worse, its not like the game breaks when a unit gets X free promotions. I am perfectly fine with a streamlined scout line (as you have proposed) and the consequence is the SF just gets loaded up with freebies, it just means the SF looks cooler, because its freakin SPECIAL FORCES!!!
If you really wanted to remove the +25% vs Gunpowder they will probably need at least a +15% straight CS buff, but of course that has other consequences and issues, and the CS balance of the unit feels pretty good right now, I don't think its worth messing with that just to appease an aesthetic desire.
But that's just my opinion so let me stop hogging the thread and let other people voice their thoughts before I throw back in.
Honestly, just yank up their base CS instead of that.
But yeah, special promotions appearing and disappearing in unit-lines (especially when they're all kept on upgrade anymore) is pretty weird.
One thing I'm not sure about however is the jump between the explorer/commando to the paratrooper, the paratrooper pretty much loses all the scout promotion at this point(ignoring terrain cost/reconnaissance) as well as 1 movement. On the upside they get the ability to paradrop, but I'm curious as to whether they should drop those promotions. Yeah maybe it's not very realistic to have paratroopers moving like scouts, but this is a game not reality.
Treasure Hunter could be condensed with XP from Recon, except that Pathfinders don't get Treasure Hunter. I don't understand that myself; was it removed for balance reasons?
I wanted to put withdraw from melee on the Commando, but it's redundant with TBIII. That's not a great reason by itself, but it was what turned me onto appraising the TBIII/SurIII promotions
There is an outstanding problem with Incan mountain cities in that no melee unit in any era can cross mountain to take a city surrounded by impassable terrain. If TB III were altered it could stay more true to the traversal mechanics of the previous TB line while also patching up this small hole in an elegant way.
Zeppelins are pretty useful for getting clear line of sight on a large front. If they go away, there is no mid-game mountain-top spotter, and it would be sad to lose that niche. TB III giving mountain crossing makes sure that mountain spotting isn't removed with zeppelins
I thought it was weird that special forces and XCOM have no alternative XP gaining mechanics, which the rest of the line has (ends with paratrooper XP on pillage). At the same time, I thought pillaging movement cost was synergistic with survivalism's existing healing bonuses. It seemed like an underused niche for the unit line to have costless pillaging earlier, instead of locking it so far back.
I don't know about you, but I never picked TB III when it was withdraw from melee. I couldn't count on the RNG, and I would much rather have more vision and movement to avoid barbs instead of a dice roll if one jumps me.
I changed the TBIII to road movement/mountain movement/free embark, and I am picking it a lot more. It's a good situational pick if you have lots of little islands, but are focusing on the bottom of the tree, with a mountain-heavy start, or your scouting gets curtailed by another civ's border expansion. Often an early embark is the difference in continuing to explore the last corners of your continent, but it's not worth diverting your tech progression just to check those last hard to reach places.
The paratrooper pretty much loses all the scout promotion at this point(ignoring terrain cost/reconnaissance) as well as 1 movement. On the upside they get the ability to paradrop, but I'm curious as to whether they should drop those promotions. Yeah maybe it's not very realistic to have paratroopers moving like scouts, but this is a game not reality.
They do get to keep a form of extra XP-generating bonus in that they can pillage for XP now, which is nice, and I feel it's consistent enough with the recon bonus in that they have an alternate XP source. but there aren't many tiles left to uncover.
IMO the core promotions kind of assume scout free movement, so this starts to hurt the late game units that don't ignore terrain. It's fine re: realism for them to continue to be cross-country units. Paratroopers and special forces seem like they should be roughing it; they aren't the frontline troops, they're back of the line operatives.
Treasure Hunter could be condensed with XP from Recon, except that Pathfinders don't get Treasure Hunter. I don't understand that myself; was it removed for balance reasons?
I don't think it's a balance concern in the sense of too strong or too weak. It's just undesirable for warriors and pathfinders to get different results from ancient ruins.
Also I think you should have to research fishing to embark. Spending 1 promotion on 1 unit is too convenient.
Pathfinder - Ignore Terrain Costs, penalty vs barbs, XP from Reconnaissance
Scout - Ignore Terrain Costs, penalty vs barbs, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance
Explorer - Ignore Terrain Costs, Brute Force, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance, Defense while Embarked, Vision while Embarked, Can Cross Deep Ocean Early
Zeppelin - Ignore Terrain Costs, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance, XP from Spotting, Hover, Extra Sight
Paratrooper - Treasure Hunter, Paradrop, No Movement to Pillage, XP from pillage, Bonus vs. Siege
Special Forces - Treasure Hunter, Paradrop, No Movement to Pillage, Amphibious, Defense while Embarked, Vision while Embarked, Bonus vs Gun
XCOM - Treasure Hunter, (Big) Paradrop, No Movement to Pillage
All promotions that stay on upgrade should also be given as free promotions to units later on the line, so you don't have to keep your super scout alive to access those later.
Promotions that do not appear on the unit immediately before or after, or only appear on 1 unit in Bold
Pathfinder - Ignore Terrain Costs, penalty vs barbs, XP from Reconnaissance
Scout - Ignore Terrain Costs, penalty vs barbs, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance
Explorer - Ignore Terrain Costs, Brute Force, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance, Defense while Embarked, Vision while Embarked, Can Cross Deep Ocean Early
Commando(see other thread) - Ignore Terrain Costs, Brute Force, Treasure Hunter, XP from Reconnaissance, XP from pillaging,Commando
Paratrooper - Ignore Terrain Costs, Treasure Hunter, Paradrop, XP from pillage, Bonus vs. Siege
Special Forces - Ignore Terrain Costs, Treasure Hunter, Paradrop, XP from pillage, Bonus vs. Siege Amphibious (?),Bonus vs Gun (?)
XCOM - Ignore Terrain Costs, Treasure Hunter, (Big) Paradrop, XP from pillage, Bonus vs. Siege
Seeing it all out like that, SF probably could stand to retain some promotions. I think the vision and defense on embark are a bit silly; are you really going to leave embarked ground units unescorted at this stage of the game? Defensive embarkation does a lot less now that embarked units can take 1-2 hits now too.
The Amphibious and Bonus vs Gun could be added back in I guess.
Maybe this is a separate discussion, but should special forces upgrade into XCom? They upgrade to mech infantry right now.
I think the idea was to make sure all XCOMs are a clean slate, and you can’t carry forward all the SFs’ bonkers promotions to XCOMs. That issue is partly ameliorated by my changes, since the xcom gets more base promotions and the SF has fewer. Amphibious does little if they all have ignore terrain cost anyways. Also, if all the promotions on SF are a problem, why are they cool on mech infantry, and get scout line promotions? I think it might make more sense to switch SF into upgrading to XCom. The unitcombat line stays intact, amd at least you don’t have mech infantry that can ignore terrain and have double move in forest/desert that way.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
in the medieval era. That's not even 1/20th of my per turn culture. Also for several of the ancient ruins categories it does nothing at all (a free tech is still just a free tech).
