Poll: Which Civilizations are least competitive in your games?

[Lrd Dread]

I said Siam, because it is, to me, the most powerful or over powered group. It is too easy to win the culture game even on the highest settings. Makes it less attractive to play.

 

[albie_123]

While what you said I agree with, that's not what this poll's about.

 

[Thalassicus]

Sure! I changed it a bit, to: 250 + 150/era, the culture exponent in VEM to 2.3, and the culture-bomb radius to 1 tile. I had around six culture-bombs in my three city game and finished at t228, having just gotten into Modern and built SOH (I'd gotten the Oracle as well) so it might be a little too much, but it felt about right with those numbers (I think lowering the base might be the best way to go).

Could you attach your version of that mod?

 

[Seek]

Could you attach your version of that mod?

Here you go - since the other post I've changed the base culture to 150 and the culture/era to 200.

Edited VEM files are from 151.1.

Included in the file is the UnitPanel in CiVUP\Core\Units which has an addition (just search "Moriboe" and you'll see it), VEC_SpecialistsandGP (culture bomb radius 1 tile) and VEP_General (culture cost exponent 2.3). I am not certain if the file "sagrada" is vital to the mod, since it is for a "more wonders" type mod - it probably isn't but I always leave it in just in case.

 

[Babri]

For Mongolia their UA can be changed to something more AI friendly yet fun for players. One choice could be remove CS bonus & instead give +1:c5move: to siege units & they start with siege promotion. Historically Mongols had the fastest army of pre-modern times & they could move them at very fast speeds including siege weapons.
And someone suggested Forum for Rome with gold bonus. Won't that be too similar to paper maker ?

 

[albie_123]

I find the Mongol UA to be one of the most fun in the game, so personally I wouldn't change it.

 

[Babri]

I find the Mongol UA to be one of the most fun in the game, so personally I wouldn't change it.

I am fine with that too but the problem is that Genghis Khan plays so bad, he never creates any Keshliks or pose any sort of threat + they never use their CS bonus at all. That is actually quite insulting for the greatest conqueror of all time (in square miles).

 

[Thalassicus]

@Seek
Thanks, I'll add that once I have the time.

@Babri

About a year ago Firaxis blocked AIs from attacking citystates in the early game. Removing that block would dramatically improve AI-Mongolia (and all other militaristic AIs), but we can't do that with our current modding tools.

I'm very reluctant to redesign a civ just because of an unwise decision by Firaxis.

 

[wobuffet]

It wouldn't be possible to give Genghis Khan, say, a couple free Horsemen or Keshiks upon researching those techs – but only when the human isn't playing as Mongolia, would it?

 

[rfxmills]

You could keep Genghis fun to play as a human and also AI friendly. Drop the Khan as a UU (is Genghis a warmonger or a nurse?), bring in a UU which acts as a knight and make the current Keshik a ranged replacement. This will keep the unit balance the same as the other civs, but with enhanced mobility building on their flavour and synergy.

UA: Mongol Terror, -10% to adjacent enemies (and cities if possible) and +1 for mounted and vanguard units. +2 for GG (additional +1 available in Honor, you will be taking Honor as the Mongols).

UU: Mounted Archer, crossbowman replacement, basically the current Keshik renamed. Unlock at chivalry, upgrades to dragoon.

UU: Keshik, knight replacement, slight drop in 4 +25% attack bonus.

N.B. both these UUs are mounted so get the Mongol Terror promotion

Reasoning... the Mongols liked their psychological warfare and had an army 100% mounted, split about 60/40 between archers and lancers, which isn't really reflected in the civ set up as it is.

 

[Txurce]

That is a lethal combination... but I like some version of it!

 

[rfxmills]

That is a lethal combination... but I like some version of it!

It's not that different to the current incarnation, losing the CS looting bonus and heal ability from GG, but adding a combat debuff for enemies and mobile UU to keep up with the old Keshiks to take the cities. Those UUs might need to be toned down, but then they are both in the same era.

I'm hoping that by bringing the Mongols back to a normal unit balance with extra mobility the AI won't suck using it and it'll still be unique enough to be fun for the humans

P.S. Vanguards have an extra move so those trained as medics can probably keep up with the army anyway.

 

[Thalassicus]

The citystate bonus and unique GG are the most interesting parts of the leader. I don't think it would be very fun to remove them. It would also make Mongolia too similar to the Huns.

 

[wobuffet]

I do agree that Genghis' City-State bonus is fun (even taking into account that combat vs CSs is in general much more fun in VEM!).

Reasoning... the Mongols liked their psychological warfare and had an army 100% mounted, split about 60/40 between archers and lancers, which isn't really reflected in the civ set up as it is.

Taking the discussion away from Mongolia for a second, aren't lancers buffed in VEM? That said, I can't remember the last time I built one (or saw the AI use one)... maybe a further buff or orthogonal change is called for, especially given how late they come in the tech tree?

 

[rfxmills]

The citystate bonus and unique GG are the most interesting parts of the leader. I don't think it would be very fun to remove them. It would also make Mongolia too similar to the Huns.

The CS bonus is nice, but couldn't you say that the current Mongols UA is similar to the Songhai? A fast medic is easy to replicate with a vanguard (+1 as the Mongols, plus promotions) and a fast GG is still there. I don't see the connection between a GG medic and the Mongols myself.

Having mounted melee and mounted archers in the medieval era and a debuff to cities would be unique and pretty fun too. The Huns are going to be the ultimate early rush civ, after that they don't have much going for them. Mongols UA gives them a tidy little boost all the way through the game until tanks start appearing and 2 UUs which work together well in the mid game. Seems pretty realistic to me

 

[Thalassicus]

Mongolia gets food, culture, and extra units from attacking citystates. Songhai gets gold from capturing any city. Those are two very different effects. It's ideal to target citystates first in any conquest game, but the Mongolian trait uniquely favors it more than other leaders.

 

[rfxmills]

Mongolia gets food, culture, and extra units from attacking citystates. Songhai gets gold from capturing any city. Those are two very different effects. It's ideal to target citystates first in any conquest game, but the Mongolian trait uniquely favors it more than other leaders.

Mongols getting a debuff attacking cities and the Huns razing cities at double speed would be different as well Anyway I don't really have a problem with the current UA, I think swapping the Khan for another mounted UU would help the AI and be more fun for the human. Would you prefer your reward for taking a CS to be a Keshik and a crossbowman, or a Keshik and a mounted melee unit with an attack bonus?

How about?

UA: Mongol Terror, +25% bonus yields capturing City-States, +1 for mounted and vanguard units, +2 for GG.

UU: Mounted Archer, crossbowman replacement, basically the current Keshik renamed. Unlock at chivalry, upgrades from archer and chariot archer, upgrades to dragoon.

UU: Keshik, knight replacement, 18 4 +25% attack bonus.

 

[Txurce]

In the meantime, the Mongols starting with a scout should help them a little more, since they also have the archers.

 

[Thalassicus]

That's the idea. It's also a lot of fun as a human to start with a 3-move scout.

 

[rfxmills]

That's the idea. It's also a lot of fun as a human to start with a 3-move scout.

I did wonder about that, as the UA covers vanguards it'd be nice to start with one. Good thinking