An orchestrated coup would get Erdogan shot by an overzealous conscript. A fake coup can work sometimes in some places, but certainly not in present-day Turkey. Erdogan's plane was targeted and nearly shot down, FFS! There were several hours in which he was incommunicado, and the PM took over and essentially acted as if Erdogan was already dead. If it was a fake coup, it was handled even more poorly than if it was a real one.
Possible coup in Turkey
- Thread starter muhtesem insan
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It seems that Putin warned Erdogan from NATO supported coup. In rl coup if he was targeted he would not land alive. I think he used informations to improve his position and orchestrated most of it. But it will be never clear, at least until end of this regime.
And I think you must be wearing a tin-foil hat. Putin and Erdogan don't even get along, and if NATO was backing a coup in Turkey Erdogan wouldn't have been asking Britain and Greece for asylum. Not only that, but a NATO-backed coup wouldn't have failed. NATO also has no reason to get rid of Erdogan for Gulen. For a hardline Kemalist who wanted to bomb the crap out of Syria, maybe, but not Gulen.
Week before coup Erdogan made unprecedent concessions to Russia and Putin, nearly licking their shoes. This had to be something huge, not just change of mind because tourism.
Military purges went directly against Turks connected with NATO operations, some even in bases against ISIS. But Erdogan started accuse some random guy abroad, without evidences.
In civil purges I do not know much, it just seems absurd that such amount of Turkish elite would be connected to some conspiracy with some guy abroad.
One general observation - In normal coup if would be leader targeted he would be shot down. If there is not attempt to kill him, than there its orchestrated.
What you can't seem to wrap your head around is that Erdogan didn't need any excuses to launch these purges. He's had these lists written up for months, and is simply using the opportunity of the coup attempt to launch all his planned purges simultaneously, far faster than planned, instead of the slow boil planned. Almost none of the people being purged were actually involved in the coup in any way.
There WAS an attempt to capture Erdogan. The plotters never actually planned to kill him, as it would rob them of their moral claim; they planned to try him for his unconstitutional acts. They weren't going to create any martyrs.
And Gulen isn't "some random guy." He's a powerful oppositional figure who used to be a political ally of Erdogan's, but who grew too powerful and became a threat, so was accused of planning a coup and forced to flee the country. About 10% of Turks express Gulenist views.
Erdogan's concessions to Russia are no big deal, and Russia's tourism spending is actually a very big deal to Turkey.
Verbose
Deity
And schools and universities.
muhtesem insan
Amateur Revolutionary
when Turkey first started negotiations it was expected in 2017 [emoji12]So, when is Turkey going to be in the EU?
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Verbose
Deity
When it fulfills the criteria.So, when is Turkey going to be in the EU?
And when every other current EU member state trusts it.
Whichever comes about first.
Terxpahseyton
Nobody
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- 10,759
So, when is Turkey going to be in the EU?
I wonder by what criteria those to be purged are chosen. I suspect it may boil down to "(possibly) not-an-Erdogan-fanboy" or at least "have a proven Erdogan-fanboy to replace him or her"
So basically Erdogan is eliminating free speech through the back-door, while taking more or less full control of education, the media and the justice system. He and Putin really do grow alike.
Greeks better be happy that they don't have a lot of Turks living in their country.
muhtesem insan
Amateur Revolutionary
I wonder by what criteria those to be purged are chosen. I suspect it may boil down to "(possibly) not-an-Erdogan-fanboy" or at least "have a proven Erdogan-fanboy to replace him or her"
So basically Erdogan is eliminating free speech through the back-door, while taking more or less full control of education, the media and the justice system. He and Putin really do grow alike.
Greeks better be happy that they don't have a lot of Turks living in their country.
By the very small sample i know it seems it's mostly contained to Gülen Supporters for now. I believe Erdoğan is trying not to make others angry right now.
And I have no problem with purging of Gülenists on any level. They reap what they sow.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
Why are you so hostile towards gulen? It looks like a pacifist, neat and very sophisticated form of Islamism. Cant think if a better alternative to salafism and all that horsehockey.
muhtesem insan
Amateur Revolutionary
First of all they're not. Of course it's better than salafism but not really pacifist or sophisticated (sufism, alevism, ....etc are). They support orthodox islam and all their violent tendencies. (Killing of apostates...etc) Their members are the most fanatical (maybe not most violent) members of any religious group in Turkey.
They are a closed political organisation using all dirty tactics to improve their influence. If they can't get you to their side and if you're on their way, you'll be eliminated any means necessary. They get the answer to official exams (University exams, Police exams, military exams...etc) and give results to their members beforehand. They falsely arrest potential threats with Attorneys and polices that they are member of movement and imprison them with their own judges. They had growing influence on state since 1980 coup and almost unlimited power since Erdoğan's reign till their fight. And all they used this power to increase their power.
Terxpahseyton
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Ah yes the Gülenists. From what I have read and heard they are a real thing and not just boogeyman to justify purges. But I am highly skeptical that they are not a boogeyman as well as a real conspiracy.
I guess I just would not trust a guy who treats people as terrorist for simply being offending to him personally to limit such a massive purge to those perhaps involved in an actual conspiracy.
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
So, when is Turkey going to be in the EU?
Country(ies) located next door will veto Turkey entry you know this very well.
Unless Turkey breaks up into a ProWestern Thrace, Islamic Asia Minor and Kurdistan, Then probably Thrace will be allowed to enter into the EU.
And be reborn as Byzantine ?
r16
not deity
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the same spirit for paragraph one , especially the last sentence . Uhmm , no for the second and rant follows .
he wasn't asking , the Last Prime Minister took on only to give the impression that there was a skedaddle , the coup would succeed and every single idiot should be in the streets so that they could be mowed down later .
yeah , right without any particular attempt at attacking the poster .
syria is the reason why the "Moderate Islam" pipedream of the West crashes so loudly . And one more time , nobody was asking anything from anyone , there was not a single doubt at America's helping hand for it to fail .
there is no such 10% . And it appears the spiritual leader of the Congregation might be transferred to Australia , so that A-K-P can be given another canard to brag about , you know by having defeated evil America .
there have been 3 Turks posting on this thread . A Leftist , an obviously not-Leftist and a Starfleet Admiral . All agree he is the leader of a plotting and scheming organization under the thumb of America through the expert handling of characters in the CIA . Or something to that end . Mind , am not putting words to the mouth of the other two even if it would be a surprise to see them offering a rebuttal .
entirely academic , we'll see the end of the so called West .
r16
not deity
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- 12,151
it's July 15th , 2016 ...
what if the PM is killed ? Civil war in the country . In which one can reliably assume it would take perhaps a week to knock out the Congregation and perhaps a month to overcome the "friction" . All the officers and NCOs would have no trouble in having identified Congregation members , for they would be the ones long priviledged , creating a now-unified center of gravity .
the Right in the country might take the former armed forces as godless drunkards and the lot , but it's in the mind of people , especially in those who identify as themselves as Muslim ; the Ottoman retreat took 200 , 300 years and was particularly harsh , if not outright awful . The advance had been on medieval terms , there were winners and there were losers and losers took the part of slaves . Retreat coincided with the rise of Nationalism and the whole trappings of Modernity , there was no place for anything Ottoman . Not even as slaves . The Right , with Medieval brainwashing as standart , loves the army , for when the army is lost everybody gets raped . So to speak .
the Left in the country sees the former armed forces as Fascists , but the same thing applies . However unjust , at the end of the day the army would treat everybody the same , down to the same garbage on the table -supposedly dinner . Which was a practical experience for all and made it an absolute impossibility for Radical Left to stage a Communist coup in the country . My mother tells of the time when a teachers' union staged a march in the city , before 1980 . All vibrant , all ready to fight any single Fascist teeth and nail , chanting slogans while carrying shoes in their hands as visual effect . Some truckloads of soldiers arrived ... Fixed bayonets and not a single teacher was left in sight while all the street was covered with shoes . Radical Left and Radical Right were killing 20 people each day and accused the army of supporting the other side ; neither dared to face the army after September 12th , 1980 because all their support base would have evaporated in an instant . And in the world of 2016 , what's left for the Alevis but the Turkish State and its sons and daughters ready to fight and die ?
so , a week passes as Congregation does what it does and stabs as many people as possible in the back . Meanwhile the Party Faihtful , ever ready to believe in Zionist plots and the like , wellcome our sunnier Sunni Brothers . Who keep on wiping their backsides with the Turkish flag and prefer physical contact with buddies over their wives and this seriously means what it means but still available for any sort dishonouring of their enemies . It's an unproveable statement -especially if you find my possession of hyperspace rated starships dubious- but we can have Sunni Arabs and them so called Sunnis can never tolerate Turks . The Right will inevitably turn to the fold and all that will mean another century of Turkish existance , flags and statues of Kemal all over the place . Awkward to explain but this also means Christian Fundamentalists have to suffer another century , unable to bring God down to Earth yet .
plus all the Jihadists will have to come from the good fight in the South ; a gap Syrians , Russians and the Iranians might fill with utterly defeating the Irresuction . So , Washington does not want a dead PM .
what if he gets captured ? Because they are basically still the same , the A-K-P management will suddenly discover the cult of leadership is so anti-democratic and long running rampant corruption is a plot of Zionists to discredit them and do them in . And in a week not a single trace of PM's support will be left . They will naturally fill the void with George Clooney's Turkish branch as the President (leading to a thing about securing him before the coup could even start) and the Little Imperalist as the Prime Minister , catching the evil Kemalists who carried out the coup by tricking the harmless Congregation into action . The spiritual leader suddenly becomes the most "Muslim" of all , causing even the most ardent Party Faithful to feel dizzy , leading to a crisis of conciousness in so many that the hold of New Turkey will greatly suffer . Achso , Washington does not want a captured PM , either .
there might or might not be a rule of thumb that said Islamists , or at least the common people who went to mosques to pray were likely to cave in when confronted with the authority of the armed forces hence the State . But Leftists were likely to resist . What happens here is that the Right discovers there is nothing to fear the armed forces . They took tanks , braved helicopter gunships and chased away F-16s with the sticks they held in their hands . A lot of footage goes around showing torture scenes , for which the Congregation is blamed . They are doing their share , not to give the A-K-P Goverment a bad name , but to prove the Turkish soldier is unable to protect himself . Just check the paragraph above somewhere about everybody getting something . While the New Turkey proves it can walk on water .
ı myself saw one , once on the light rail . Widespread distribution and the guy sitting on the opposite bench keeps his phone low as he checks morning news and what pals are sharing online . We have this coupist with only a shorts on him , beaten by a belt by two guys in military uniforms in what looks like showers in a garrison . The guy looks up and it's just an instinct for ı am kinda really famous and everybody knows ex-soldiers keep an eye on me . ı really do not want to enjoy the feeling of rising fear in peoples' eyes so ı just changed my place . Hey , it's not even me who they fear . If locals shut up and stop posting around "He said this" or "No, he said that" even Ahmet Hakan will not waste his column space with a fullsome account of how he always likes all his guests . No ? Why , it's already on the record that ı wear the green t-shirt like stuff at the height of summer ; yellow heat it must be called . And yes , real Army issue , from the year 2000 , from the very very coupist Etimesgut Zırhlı Birlikler Okulu . Where yours idiotly was a soldiery thing for 26 days after parents paid 4500 DM .
and all such footage will be kept for future use when there's enough Sunniness in the country and they will compare it to exactly same looking beatings administred by the Alawites in Syria just before the beginning of the fighting , only in Arabic and with a hose . Will prove the godless Shia were beaten in their own game and it surely can be done abroad . Civil War will start then , with maximum number of Kemalist officers and the lot sent abroad . Perfect achievement for the US until now . Rejuvanated enthuasism for the Party , a lot of Islamist propaganda but not exactly a re-boot for a TV anchor or something . She has seen undeniable evidence of how the "democratizing" Congregation has been wasting people by less than legal means . A perfect watery eye , she was once again on the brink of crying as some jailed officer of the former Navy told of how personnel came up with a tale of ship building and all the little kids were told that "Daddy will come home when it's finished" . Fine by me , it's most unlikely that she will ever be seen again claiming numerical superiority gives legitimacy (as in the Sunni Jihad in Iraq and Syria) or being a NATO member obviously requires happening of stuff . ı can't make a guess on US vs us , but am pretty sure of which side she will root for in a NATO vs Turkey war .
lots of assurances on that how those will not happen as the New Turkey claims not just reforming but doing everything from the scratch . We have all seen how Kemal is an awesome obstacle . They have long tried to lessen the long dead Founder of the Republic with increased stress on Çanakkale , where he was just a divisional commander ; it's the perfect "Oh, dear" moment as they invented a tank for 1915 , you know a with a car , some planks , two Ottoman guys in period uniforms and a pipe for the gun . And not even a stove pipe , at that ... There is so much talk that defines the Congregation as invaders and their defeat symbolyses the liberation of the country . On par with you know what . Well , they had the most modern tanks , meaning 120 mm , 44 caliber guns and adequately supported 74 of them guns would be more power than the Greek Army of 1919-22 , but that still leaves the somewhat and somehow thorny issue of how those 74 tanks were not the Turkish Army .
edit : And lots of talk on Egypt becoming a host nation for the Congregation . Attempting real hard not to give an impression of issues to come , but A-K-P will pass and Turkey will still remain .
what if the PM is killed ? Civil war in the country . In which one can reliably assume it would take perhaps a week to knock out the Congregation and perhaps a month to overcome the "friction" . All the officers and NCOs would have no trouble in having identified Congregation members , for they would be the ones long priviledged , creating a now-unified center of gravity .
the Right in the country might take the former armed forces as godless drunkards and the lot , but it's in the mind of people , especially in those who identify as themselves as Muslim ; the Ottoman retreat took 200 , 300 years and was particularly harsh , if not outright awful . The advance had been on medieval terms , there were winners and there were losers and losers took the part of slaves . Retreat coincided with the rise of Nationalism and the whole trappings of Modernity , there was no place for anything Ottoman . Not even as slaves . The Right , with Medieval brainwashing as standart , loves the army , for when the army is lost everybody gets raped . So to speak .
the Left in the country sees the former armed forces as Fascists , but the same thing applies . However unjust , at the end of the day the army would treat everybody the same , down to the same garbage on the table -supposedly dinner . Which was a practical experience for all and made it an absolute impossibility for Radical Left to stage a Communist coup in the country . My mother tells of the time when a teachers' union staged a march in the city , before 1980 . All vibrant , all ready to fight any single Fascist teeth and nail , chanting slogans while carrying shoes in their hands as visual effect . Some truckloads of soldiers arrived ... Fixed bayonets and not a single teacher was left in sight while all the street was covered with shoes . Radical Left and Radical Right were killing 20 people each day and accused the army of supporting the other side ; neither dared to face the army after September 12th , 1980 because all their support base would have evaporated in an instant . And in the world of 2016 , what's left for the Alevis but the Turkish State and its sons and daughters ready to fight and die ?
so , a week passes as Congregation does what it does and stabs as many people as possible in the back . Meanwhile the Party Faihtful , ever ready to believe in Zionist plots and the like , wellcome our sunnier Sunni Brothers . Who keep on wiping their backsides with the Turkish flag and prefer physical contact with buddies over their wives and this seriously means what it means but still available for any sort dishonouring of their enemies . It's an unproveable statement -especially if you find my possession of hyperspace rated starships dubious- but we can have Sunni Arabs and them so called Sunnis can never tolerate Turks . The Right will inevitably turn to the fold and all that will mean another century of Turkish existance , flags and statues of Kemal all over the place . Awkward to explain but this also means Christian Fundamentalists have to suffer another century , unable to bring God down to Earth yet .
plus all the Jihadists will have to come from the good fight in the South ; a gap Syrians , Russians and the Iranians might fill with utterly defeating the Irresuction . So , Washington does not want a dead PM .
what if he gets captured ? Because they are basically still the same , the A-K-P management will suddenly discover the cult of leadership is so anti-democratic and long running rampant corruption is a plot of Zionists to discredit them and do them in . And in a week not a single trace of PM's support will be left . They will naturally fill the void with George Clooney's Turkish branch as the President (leading to a thing about securing him before the coup could even start) and the Little Imperalist as the Prime Minister , catching the evil Kemalists who carried out the coup by tricking the harmless Congregation into action . The spiritual leader suddenly becomes the most "Muslim" of all , causing even the most ardent Party Faithful to feel dizzy , leading to a crisis of conciousness in so many that the hold of New Turkey will greatly suffer . Achso , Washington does not want a captured PM , either .
there might or might not be a rule of thumb that said Islamists , or at least the common people who went to mosques to pray were likely to cave in when confronted with the authority of the armed forces hence the State . But Leftists were likely to resist . What happens here is that the Right discovers there is nothing to fear the armed forces . They took tanks , braved helicopter gunships and chased away F-16s with the sticks they held in their hands . A lot of footage goes around showing torture scenes , for which the Congregation is blamed . They are doing their share , not to give the A-K-P Goverment a bad name , but to prove the Turkish soldier is unable to protect himself . Just check the paragraph above somewhere about everybody getting something . While the New Turkey proves it can walk on water .
ı myself saw one , once on the light rail . Widespread distribution and the guy sitting on the opposite bench keeps his phone low as he checks morning news and what pals are sharing online . We have this coupist with only a shorts on him , beaten by a belt by two guys in military uniforms in what looks like showers in a garrison . The guy looks up and it's just an instinct for ı am kinda really famous and everybody knows ex-soldiers keep an eye on me . ı really do not want to enjoy the feeling of rising fear in peoples' eyes so ı just changed my place . Hey , it's not even me who they fear . If locals shut up and stop posting around "He said this" or "No, he said that" even Ahmet Hakan will not waste his column space with a fullsome account of how he always likes all his guests . No ? Why , it's already on the record that ı wear the green t-shirt like stuff at the height of summer ; yellow heat it must be called . And yes , real Army issue , from the year 2000 , from the very very coupist Etimesgut Zırhlı Birlikler Okulu . Where yours idiotly was a soldiery thing for 26 days after parents paid 4500 DM .
and all such footage will be kept for future use when there's enough Sunniness in the country and they will compare it to exactly same looking beatings administred by the Alawites in Syria just before the beginning of the fighting , only in Arabic and with a hose . Will prove the godless Shia were beaten in their own game and it surely can be done abroad . Civil War will start then , with maximum number of Kemalist officers and the lot sent abroad . Perfect achievement for the US until now . Rejuvanated enthuasism for the Party , a lot of Islamist propaganda but not exactly a re-boot for a TV anchor or something . She has seen undeniable evidence of how the "democratizing" Congregation has been wasting people by less than legal means . A perfect watery eye , she was once again on the brink of crying as some jailed officer of the former Navy told of how personnel came up with a tale of ship building and all the little kids were told that "Daddy will come home when it's finished" . Fine by me , it's most unlikely that she will ever be seen again claiming numerical superiority gives legitimacy (as in the Sunni Jihad in Iraq and Syria) or being a NATO member obviously requires happening of stuff . ı can't make a guess on US vs us , but am pretty sure of which side she will root for in a NATO vs Turkey war .
lots of assurances on that how those will not happen as the New Turkey claims not just reforming but doing everything from the scratch . We have all seen how Kemal is an awesome obstacle . They have long tried to lessen the long dead Founder of the Republic with increased stress on Çanakkale , where he was just a divisional commander ; it's the perfect "Oh, dear" moment as they invented a tank for 1915 , you know a with a car , some planks , two Ottoman guys in period uniforms and a pipe for the gun . And not even a stove pipe , at that ... There is so much talk that defines the Congregation as invaders and their defeat symbolyses the liberation of the country . On par with you know what . Well , they had the most modern tanks , meaning 120 mm , 44 caliber guns and adequately supported 74 of them guns would be more power than the Greek Army of 1919-22 , but that still leaves the somewhat and somehow thorny issue of how those 74 tanks were not the Turkish Army .
edit : And lots of talk on Egypt becoming a host nation for the Congregation . Attempting real hard not to give an impression of issues to come , but A-K-P will pass and Turkey will still remain .
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