Yes, having options is always nice. But I'm not sure whether a game (rule) system designed to work well with "plan and go" turns would also work equally well with a traditional "sequential" turn system. There might be a danger in trying to go for too many different games-in-one-game.
Possible Future Direction (personal view)
- Thread starter Koshling
- Start date
Yes, having options is always nice. But I'm not sure whether a game (rule) system designed to work well with "plan and go" turns would also work equally well with a traditional "sequential" turn system. There might be a danger in trying to go for too many different games-in-one-game.
rightfuture
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 1,649
I just updated and edited my last few posts to better convey my ideas for the future and everyone's roles in making the best CIV and C2C game possible!
Let's continue make this thread an ongoing discussion for the future of C2C!
I would love to hear everyone's ideas, all organized and improved upon. What else do you think?
I bet there are many things people would like to see.
We all want most of the same thing, an improving and even better CIV!
I would love to hear everyone's thoughts and speculations.
What would you like!
Let's get this conversation moving!
Let's continue make this thread an ongoing discussion for the future of C2C!
I would love to hear everyone's ideas, all organized and improved upon. What else do you think?
I bet there are many things people would like to see.
We all want most of the same thing, an improving and even better CIV!
I would love to hear everyone's thoughts and speculations.
What would you like!
Let's get this conversation moving!
"Plan and go" would have the advantage that an actor/action resolution similar to what several roguelikes have could be used. That would mean one actor acts at a time, in our case according to the plan made by the player/AI on the last global turn, but actions can take less than one turn. So for a unit with 2 moves per turn in flat terrain a move would take half a turn and the unit would get to act twice per turn while moving.
Fights could be split up in a similar way. But unlike roguelikes you would not get to control the unit directly during the turn but instead the plan would determine what the unit decides to do.
Acularius
King
Another example I can think of for 'plan and go' would be AGEOD games, or at least the one I am most familiar with is Pride of Nations.
Edit:
On a side note.
Can we finally quantify the resources?
Since we are using hexagons, or at the moment...
As an example could a hexagon have 7 slots for resources?(6 sides and the vertex?) [Granted, depending on the map size the amount of slots per hexagon can increase or decrease depending on the map size.]
The tech tree could be essentially a trigger system, which relies on chance which could be determined by the turn length. A quicker game would have many more chances of a 'concept' or 'invention' firing [less turns, so more years/months/days, what have yous a turn] and a longer game having less [For the opposite reason].
I'm just jotting down some ideas... food for thought.
I do remember that there was a demand for 'multiple resources' in a tile, and that there was interest in 'a supply system'.
As of right now... concept.
Population, Slot, Hexagon tiles
1 Population = 100~ people give or take.
[Assumption: For the sake of gameplay, a 'slot' in the 'grassland' tile with no bonus towards 'population growth' will supply 1 unit of population]
This grassland slot, worked by 1 population will provide one unit of 'food' known as 'forage' which by assumption only provides enough food for the people who collected it.
Hexagon has multiple working slots determined by the map size. (You could also remove slots due to features such as rivers, or add slots due to technology such as being able to work a mountain or clear a marsh)
[Assumption: For now, lets go with 7, 6 sides and the vertex.]
Hunting
Look a wild 'Cow' appeared...
[Assumption: Game is essentially a undomesticated form of prey (meaty goodness)]
Wild animals may move around on the map. They can also settle hexagons of interest (grasslands, plains, woods, coasts...etc.) therefore filling a slot with an 'animal' (game) [Herd,Flock, Pack, Gaggle, etc.).
Furthermore, a slot that contains game may also, spawn another animal unit of its type on the map (A cow spawns a cow), be removed completely from game (due to hunting or some other instance), spawn another slot of game meat, or spawn as an animal while removing itself from the slot.
[Under the assumption that, natural resources, can spread without detriment to finite resources. However, finite resources have a limit to how many slots you can use for them.]
[With the discovery of 'Tracking', under the 'Plan and Go' system, an animal can be followed by a scout as an 'order'. When the population becomes available to do so].
That's about where I got.
I was going to discuss gathering grains, tools and shelter next once I get my head wrapped around it. [Written down]
Edit:
On a side note.
Can we finally quantify the resources?
Since we are using hexagons, or at the moment...
As an example could a hexagon have 7 slots for resources?(6 sides and the vertex?) [Granted, depending on the map size the amount of slots per hexagon can increase or decrease depending on the map size.]
The tech tree could be essentially a trigger system, which relies on chance which could be determined by the turn length. A quicker game would have many more chances of a 'concept' or 'invention' firing [less turns, so more years/months/days, what have yous a turn] and a longer game having less [For the opposite reason].
I'm just jotting down some ideas... food for thought.
I do remember that there was a demand for 'multiple resources' in a tile, and that there was interest in 'a supply system'.
As of right now... concept.
Population, Slot, Hexagon tiles
1 Population = 100~ people give or take.
[Assumption: For the sake of gameplay, a 'slot' in the 'grassland' tile with no bonus towards 'population growth' will supply 1 unit of population]
This grassland slot, worked by 1 population will provide one unit of 'food' known as 'forage' which by assumption only provides enough food for the people who collected it.
Hexagon has multiple working slots determined by the map size. (You could also remove slots due to features such as rivers, or add slots due to technology such as being able to work a mountain or clear a marsh)
[Assumption: For now, lets go with 7, 6 sides and the vertex.]
Hunting
Look a wild 'Cow' appeared...
[Assumption: Game is essentially a undomesticated form of prey (meaty goodness)]
Wild animals may move around on the map. They can also settle hexagons of interest (grasslands, plains, woods, coasts...etc.) therefore filling a slot with an 'animal' (game) [Herd,Flock, Pack, Gaggle, etc.).
Furthermore, a slot that contains game may also, spawn another animal unit of its type on the map (A cow spawns a cow), be removed completely from game (due to hunting or some other instance), spawn another slot of game meat, or spawn as an animal while removing itself from the slot.
[Under the assumption that, natural resources, can spread without detriment to finite resources. However, finite resources have a limit to how many slots you can use for them.]
[With the discovery of 'Tracking', under the 'Plan and Go' system, an animal can be followed by a scout as an 'order'. When the population becomes available to do so].
That's about where I got.
I was going to discuss gathering grains, tools and shelter next once I get my head wrapped around it. [Written down]
Yid
Chieftain
Hi,
I think that the PBEM "plan and go" feature would need serious redesign of the gameplay for one obvious reason: right now there are to many turns!
When I played VGA Planets 4 a game took like 50 turns, (though you could plan movement in 200 ticks of each turn). Games like these took a half year or more.
In C2C we are talking about something like 1000-4000 turns. I think most players will loose interest if the game runs for 20-80 years of real time...
I think that the PBEM "plan and go" feature would need serious redesign of the gameplay for one obvious reason: right now there are to many turns!
When I played VGA Planets 4 a game took like 50 turns, (though you could plan movement in 200 ticks of each turn). Games like these took a half year or more.
In C2C we are talking about something like 1000-4000 turns. I think most players will loose interest if the game runs for 20-80 years of real time...
I don't see why games with the "plan and go" turn system have to take longer than games with a sequential turn system. You can have as many or as few turns in either type of game as you want. The number of turns and the way they are being played out (sequential or "plan and go") are totally separate issues.
@ Acularius: I think it is a bit early in the process to talk about the details of the resource system, especially since we are still lumping together everything in one thread. But since you brought up the subject, let me try to, as briefly as possible, add my thoughts:
My dream game would distinguish, obviously, between finite resources and renewable resources. Finite resources are iron, coal, oil and the like. Renewable resources are products of agriculture and farming, like wheat or sheep, the silk produced by domesticated silkworms, and so on.
All resources would be quantifiable. With a finite resource like iron or oil, you would have a certain number of units on a tile, depending on how large or small an iron ore deposit or an oil field is.
The production of a renewable resource per tile / per turn would depend on things like soil quality (for agriculture), production tech and so on. Also, unlike finite resources, renewable resources would be able to spread. To begin with, there would only be "wild" resources - wild horses, wild sheep, wild wheat, wild rice and so on, in the places where they evolved naturally. Early in the game, when a civilization has discovered the required tech, such resources could be domesticated. For instance, you domesticate wheat, and from then on are able to grow wheat on any of your tiles that has the required climate and soil. Once one civilization has domesticated a renewable resource like wheat or horses, the knowledge of it will slowly spread to neighbouring civilizations, as it did in real history.
I think it would be fascinating to have agriculture, domesticated animals etc. spread from a few "cradles of civilization" as they did in real history. But what about those civilizations that are not so lucky to start out in a cradle of civilization, where no good "resource package" of wild grains and wild animals suitable for domestication exists? Would they not be disadvantaged? Initially, yes, but ways could be designed to make them playable nonetheless, so that they can catch up later and maybe even overtake the early cradles of civilization. I have thought about this in some detail as well - but this is really stuff for another post.
My dream game would distinguish, obviously, between finite resources and renewable resources. Finite resources are iron, coal, oil and the like. Renewable resources are products of agriculture and farming, like wheat or sheep, the silk produced by domesticated silkworms, and so on.
All resources would be quantifiable. With a finite resource like iron or oil, you would have a certain number of units on a tile, depending on how large or small an iron ore deposit or an oil field is.
The production of a renewable resource per tile / per turn would depend on things like soil quality (for agriculture), production tech and so on. Also, unlike finite resources, renewable resources would be able to spread. To begin with, there would only be "wild" resources - wild horses, wild sheep, wild wheat, wild rice and so on, in the places where they evolved naturally. Early in the game, when a civilization has discovered the required tech, such resources could be domesticated. For instance, you domesticate wheat, and from then on are able to grow wheat on any of your tiles that has the required climate and soil. Once one civilization has domesticated a renewable resource like wheat or horses, the knowledge of it will slowly spread to neighbouring civilizations, as it did in real history.
I think it would be fascinating to have agriculture, domesticated animals etc. spread from a few "cradles of civilization" as they did in real history. But what about those civilizations that are not so lucky to start out in a cradle of civilization, where no good "resource package" of wild grains and wild animals suitable for domestication exists? Would they not be disadvantaged? Initially, yes, but ways could be designed to make them playable nonetheless, so that they can catch up later and maybe even overtake the early cradles of civilization. I have thought about this in some detail as well - but this is really stuff for another post.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Have you played c2c much? We have the Great Farmer who basically achieves this very function for civs.
I know. It's a very nice innovation! I still would do it a bit differently, though, if I had the opportunity to build a new game from the ground up.
Acularius
King
I hadn't gotten to that point, but natural resources can spread so long as they can be supported. (Actually, my brain... yeah... whirled a good portion of the evening to 2am in the morning thinking on it. Thankfully there is coffee)
My problem figuring out a solution for finite resources.
I figured it out, I won't go into much detail... where would be a good place to discuss this though?
Finite resources, a hexagon would determine it with. (Found/Sustainable/Hidden)
A hidden resource can influence the triggering of tech... once sufficient tools and fires are achievable there is a chance to discover local metals depending on the hidden values. Once a found value is found, you have a slot of resource.
Working the area can lead to a discovery of more of that resource IF the value of Found is lower than the value of Hidden. Found can decrease IF the value of Found is higher than Sustain.
With various techs, Hidden slowly depletes and becomes sustain.
Resources could also be not available at a specific tech but randomly appear later (sort of like the Mines now sometimes give new resources). I do think however that most resources should not be used up easily, or if they are, then a later tech will allow you to keep exploiting them (as you get an advance that unlocks the ability to get at more of something that you could not get at earlier).
ggm
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2004
- Messages
- 86
one of the things that bugs me about dissappearing resources is that it doesnt take into account technology. an ancient mine with a small open vein of copper is not the same thing as an open pit gigantic mine in brazil producing tones a day. out of iron, solution recycling, still got problems, materials science with substitute materials. cant be bothered: earth core tap (the whole center of the earth is molten metal), aluminum, moon mining is pure aluminum oxide dust.
big fan just some thoughts ggm
big fan just some thoughts ggm
Yid
Chieftain
Let's take a closer look at the "ore" or "rare earths" or "metal" resources:
In a model like this everything would be quite detailled. If you want to make everything easy and playable you just rule that say 30% of an iron resource (mine) can be mined with ancient techniques, 30% with modern techniques (shaft mine) and 40% with future technique (advanced mine) can be found and mined.
Making it more complicated you can spread different kinds of metal all over the map and rule which technology/tile improvement unlocks what. Let's say a big vein of gold can be mined with a "mine" and dust gold is only available with the kind of mines we were talking about in Brazil. And of course some in-betweeners...
@ ls612, ggm, Yid: I don't like the idea of "random" resources appearing later in the game. It is not very elegant. I think all finite resources of copper, iron, oil and so on should be on the map from the beginning, but they should be in different kinds of deposits.
I really like Yid's idea of having different kinds of deposits that become accessible as technology progresses. Take gold, for instance. At the beginning of the game, gold would only be mined from placer deposits along rivers. Then, as technology progresses and more advanced mining methods become available, you can discover and exploit other gold deposits as well. You can go deeper and deeper underground, and you get better methods from extracting gold from the ore. This would be just like in real history.
It should be very difficult to exhaust all but the smallest deposits until the beginning of the industrial age. Historically, the amounts of iron, copper, gold, coal etc. that were mined until 1800 make up only a tiny fraction (usually below 1%) of the amounts that have been mined from 1800 until today.
In terms of quantifying resources, I would just stay as close to the realistic figures as possible. Giga-tons of iron, copper etc., and how much you can mine per year with what kind of technology.
I really like Yid's idea of having different kinds of deposits that become accessible as technology progresses. Take gold, for instance. At the beginning of the game, gold would only be mined from placer deposits along rivers. Then, as technology progresses and more advanced mining methods become available, you can discover and exploit other gold deposits as well. You can go deeper and deeper underground, and you get better methods from extracting gold from the ore. This would be just like in real history.
It should be very difficult to exhaust all but the smallest deposits until the beginning of the industrial age. Historically, the amounts of iron, copper, gold, coal etc. that were mined until 1800 make up only a tiny fraction (usually below 1%) of the amounts that have been mined from 1800 until today.
In terms of quantifying resources, I would just stay as close to the realistic figures as possible. Giga-tons of iron, copper etc., and how much you can mine per year with what kind of technology.
Acularius
King
I went with the concept of 'Found/Sustainable/Hidden'
Found - How much of the resource you have currently found and can work.
Sustainable - How much of the resource you can work without depleting a source [Hidden value]
Hidden - How much of the resource is locked away, such as it being too far down or unaccessible. [Hidden value]
Found value is determined by the Sustain and Hidden values. Depletion can occur is Found is higher than Sustain, and more can found so long as Found does not exceed the Hidden value, a greater chance if Found is not at the sustainable level..
As technology progresses and you discover better ways in mining, sustain values will rise as hidden values drop.
I'm not sure I understand what the "sustain" value is supposed to be. Does this mean that the amount of the resource magically increases somehow as technology progresses?
I suggest just having "found" (the amount you have discovered, and are able to mine) and "hidden" (the amount you have not yet found).
Acularius
King
Even though it is a finite resource, lets just assume that it can produce a certain residual amount. [A harder difficulty could remove sustain values, or have the chance of them significantly lower]I'm not sure I understand what the "sustain" value is supposed to be. Does this mean that the amount of the resource magically increases somehow as technology progresses?
I suggest just having "found" (the amount you have discovered, and are able to mine) and "hidden" (the amount you have not yet found).
The sustain value is what the tile, can continuously supply without depleting.
In the early game, you will generally only be able to scratch the surface of the Earth, therefore there still might be 'more' further down, leading to the Hidden value.
As you go, and your technology progress, finding more of the hidden resource can increase the sustain value (a chance).
The Found value is what you know is there and can mine.
Therefore, the found value can randomly increase throughout the game so long that it is below the sustain and hidden value.
The found value can decrease if it is above the sustain value.
Sorry, but I still don't get the purpose of the "sustain" value. It sounds to me as if you only need "found" and "hidden". A certain amount of, say, iron is in an iron ore deposit. You have discovered a certain percentage of that amount, while the rest remains hidden. What else is there?
Maybe I am just being thick. Does anyone else understand the purpose of the "sustain" value Acularius is suggesting?
Acularius
King
For the sake of gameplay, the sustain value ensures that the resource is always present in that tile.
That's all.
For harder or easier difficulties the existence of the value can be tweaked for a more interesting game.
It saves the need of creating a recycling mechanic.
I'd say you could have different deposits (of which there can be multiple on the same plot) that are defined by technology needed to find it and by technology needed to harvest it. You need a specific amount of effort to tap it, then the extraction difficulty rises from an initial value until a final value when the deposit is nearly empty (but there is a finite amount in each deposit).
When you have exhausted that first easy tech deposit, you might be able to tap another deposit on the same plot with better technology later.
When you have exhausted that first easy tech deposit, you might be able to tap another deposit on the same plot with better technology later.
