Possible Future Direction (personal view)

Really depends on how the resource system is designed.
An open system would need a constant supply in, and a way to lose it.
A closed system would keep the resources in the game at all times.
Both systems lead to varying amounts of inflation depending on how each are modeled.
 
Really depends on how the resource system is designed.
An open system would need a constant supply in, and a way to lose it.
A closed system would keep the resources in the game at all times.
Both systems lead to varying amounts of inflation depending on how each are modeled.
I'd go for a model close to reality with some finite and some infinite (renewable) sources, some reuse but also losses. So eventually you will run out of certain resources.
 
I'd go for a model close to reality with some finite and some infinite (renewable) sources, some reuse but also losses. So eventually you will run out of certain resources.

Once a system is chosen, you can design everything around that instead of shoehorning everything to it later.
I tend to prefer open system... we could provide a simple boost to AI at higher difficulties without flooding the world.
 
For the sake of gameplay, the sustain value ensures that the resource is always present in that tile.
That's all.

Ah, I see your point now.

Well, like AIAndy, I would prefer a realistic system where finite resources are actually finite. As I wrote earlier, this should not be too noticeable until the late game, anyway - realistically, it should be impossible to exhaust all but the smallest deposits until the industrial age, when large-scale industrialised, mechanized mining begins in earnest.
 
Ah, I see your point now.

Well, like AIAndy, I would prefer a realistic system where finite resources are actually finite. As I wrote earlier, this should not be too noticeable until the late game, anyway - realistically, it should be impossible to exhaust all but the smallest deposits until the industrial age, when large-scale industrialised, mechanized mining begins in earnest.
There were some small deposits that played a role in ancient times like the iron meteorites that were the first sources for iron or the (sometimes small) tin sources.
Finite resources should provide some interesting gameplay mechanics and incentives for trading.
 
I just proposed the sustain value for people who didn't want to have a world where the resources could totally deplete.
To give an option so to speak so players an choose whether or not to play with the options, and not force them down one chosen path.
It could be turned on or off essentially. It could lead to a wealthier and more inflated world, but that is just a warning you have to add.
 
There were some small deposits that played a role in ancient times like the iron meteorites that were the first sources for iron or the (sometimes small) tin sources.
Finite resources should provide some interesting gameplay mechanics and incentives for trading.

We just need to make sure that there are enough resources in the game so that you won't run out easily. If there is no iron left by the Classical Era that is neither realistic nor fun.
 
We just need to make sure that there are enough resources in the game so that you won't run out easily. If there is no iron left by the Classical Era that is neither realistic nor fun.

Under a closed system, even if there are no mine-able sources of iron left , the game would still keep the existing iron (already mined) in game, in some shape or form. Could theoretically lead to hoarding issues [and on that note, scarcity].
Under an open system, with some form of sustainability of finite resource should keep the levels of iron at a decent level even while it leaves the system. Could lead to inflation issues down the road.

Both have their strengths and both have their weaknesses.
 
Under a closed system, even if there are no mine-able sources of iron left , the game would still keep the existing iron (already mined) in game, in some shape or form. Could theoretically lead to hoarding issues [and on that note, scarcity].
Under an open system, with some form of sustainability of finite resource should keep the levels of iron at a decent level even while it leaves the system. Could lead to inflation issues down the road.

Both have their strengths and both have their weaknesses.

I'm saying from a numbers perspective it is probably better to err on the side of too much as opposed to too little.
 
Under a closed system, even if there are no mine-able sources of iron left , the game would still keep the existing iron (already mined) in game, in some shape or form. Could theoretically lead to hoarding issues [and on that note, scarcity].
Under an open system, with some form of sustainability of finite resource should keep the levels of iron at a decent level even while it leaves the system. Could lead to inflation issues down the road.

Both have their strengths and both have their weaknesses.
I'd rather we combine an open system with finite resources (without infinite sustainability at least in regards to non renewable resources) and continuous expenses required for storage.
 
I'd rather we combine an open system with finite resources (without infinite sustainability at least in regards to non renewable resources) and continuous expenses required for storage.

Where would the cost for storage come from? I'm pretty sure that most First World nations use finite resources to support their storage capabilities. [Not 100% sure on this, could be wrong]
I do tend to support the 'open system', but with the option to turn on sustainable finite resources on and off. Thus satisfying both camps, while still maintaining a form of variability.
[Watch out, going Laurier on you all. :P ]
 
I think it might be worth looking at a sort of combined system. For example, depending on the development and size of an oil patch, it would produce some amount of oil. In the infinite mode, the size of the oil patch would never decrease and in the finite mode it would decrease based on production.
 
I think it might be worth looking at a sort of combined system. For example, depending on the development and size of an oil patch, it would produce some amount of oil. In the infinite mode, the size of the oil patch would never decrease and in the finite mode it would decrease based on production.

It is a noticeable pattern that, whenever a design decision comes up, someone sooner or later suggests that the game should support both options of the decision. In the hex tiles vs. square tiles discussion, some people suggested: why not make a game that supports both hexes and squares? In the sequential turns vs. "plan and go" turns discussion, people suggested: why don't we make a game that supports both these turn modes? And now, people are suggesting that the game should have both a finite and an infinite resource system.

If the team were to follow all these suggestions, the workload would double. Actually, it would probably more than double, because designing one game that works well with different tile formats, turn formats etc. is more complex than simply designing two separate games - you have to make sure that all the different features integrate well into the whole, you have to test and balance a much more feature-bloated game, and so forth.

The other danger I see is that, if we try to cram all these different options into one game (hex tiles, square tiles, sequential turns, plan-and-go turns, finite resources, infinite resources...), we end up with a game that has no discernible identity, no "face". My experience is that, when you try to please everyone with a design, you often end up pleasing no one.

I'm not saying that having different options is a bad idea per se, I'm just pointing out the dangers I see, especially if we go down the route of "Oh, let's just have both options!" every time.
 
IT really depends on what you are making, I was under the impression this project was an overall basis for making 4X strategy games, in that case you want every option you can give so other people decide the face they want to give their projects.
For instance a friend of mine is doing something similar with an rpg style game, so he is making as many customization options as he can so the people that make projects for it can do what they want with as few limitations as possible.
 
It is a noticeable pattern that, whenever a design decision comes up, someone sooner or later suggests that the game should support both options of the decision. In the hex tiles vs. square tiles discussion, some people suggested: why not make a game that supports both hexes and squares? In the sequential turns vs. "plan and go" turns discussion, people suggested: why don't we make a game that supports both these turn modes? And now, people are suggesting that the game should have both a finite and an infinite resource system.

If the team were to follow all these suggestions, the workload would double. Actually, it would probably more than double, because designing one game that works well with different tile formats, turn formats etc. is more complex than simply designing two separate games - you have to make sure that all the different features integrate well into the whole, you have to test and balance a much more feature-bloated game, and so forth.

The other danger I see is that, if we try to cram all these different options into one game (hex tiles, square tiles, sequential turns, plan-and-go turns, finite resources, infinite resources...), we end up with a game that has no discernible identity, no "face". My experience is that, when you try to please everyone with a design, you often end up pleasing no one.

I'm not saying that having different options is a bad idea per se, I'm just pointing out the dangers I see, especially if we go down the route of "Oh, let's just have both options!" every time.

I see where you are coming from...
Its is true that having a sustainable supply of resources that decay over time or having truly finite resources that do not decay would bring about 2 different ways of how a scenario would change.
Or that's how I see it, a closed system is where everything is already there as a whole or the entrance of something new is so negligible that is is essentially close to 0. An open system allows for new things to go into the works, and then have some way to relieve the system.
Currently Civ IV is a open system, commerce for example comes from the land and then leaves through expenses of maintenance and military, but there is no finite supply of resource. So this makes sense.

That's why I suggested that one needs to choose one or the other, and try not to mix them.
Also thinking back on it, although doable, turning off the sustain and decay values to represent the decay values would need to change the other systems that rely on it, such as demand, trade and military supply.
 
I absolutely hate the hex tiles in Civ 5; I understand the arguements, but I can't see it being an advantage. (Yes I have played many strategic board games, and video games with hexes.)
I think movement is awkward (zig-zag) in the obvious directions. Tiles give normal co-ordinates and it is easier to see directional relationships.
At worst octagon vs hex preserves 8 obvious directions:N,S,E,W, and the variations NE,NW, SE,SW as well.
Hexs have 6 sides and miss two main cardinal points.


Resource Quantity , I can see the need to have them both ways for gameplay sake.
Some people want more realistic - limited, others want them to be capped but not limited.
I think that resources specifically should be the way you want to play them.
 
Well, idea occurred to me... I think I could go with the totally closed system and finite resources.
I think would could introduce an extraterritorial being - The Black Market.
It could siphon the excess finite resources and through policing of their areas one could get resources back. Or trade for them back.
Furthermore, you can sell your soldier population (Well, they live in your country, but they go off to fight foreign wars) off as mercenaries for hire, thus netting you income from outside your country, while providing soldiers to countries who can pay.
Only problem is making sure that the system is disjointed over oceans and respects trade routes limitations.
 
I absolutely hate the hex tiles in Civ 5; I understand the arguements, but I can't see it being an advantage. (Yes I have played many strategic board games, and video games with hexes.)
I think movement is awkward (zig-zag) in the obvious directions. Tiles give normal co-ordinates and it is easier to see directional relationships.
At worst octagon vs hex preserves 8 obvious directions:N,S,E,W, and the variations NE,NW, SE,SW as well.
Hexs have 6 sides and miss two main cardinal points.

Hexes have the obvious advantage that the distances from the center of one hex to the centers of the adjacent hexes are equal, which allows for more consistent / realistic modelling of unit movement. That is why hexes, not squares, are the de facto standard in military boardgames.

I don't really buy the "cardinal directions" argument that is cited as a supposed advantage of square tiles. I find that, after playing games with hex tiles for a while, hex tiles and the movement on hex maps feel just as "natural" as squares. It all comes down to what one is used to.

Alas, the hex vs. squares debate has been going on since the dawn of gaming, and one side is never going to convince the other. ;)
 
Hexes have the obvious advantage that the distances from the center of one hex to the centers of the adjacent hexes are equal, which allows for more consistent / realistic modelling of unit movement. That is why hexes, not squares, are the de facto standard in military boardgames.

I don't really buy the "cardinal directions" argument that is cited as a supposed advantage of square tiles. I find that, after playing games with hex tiles for a while, hex tiles and the movement on hex maps feel just as "natural" as squares. It all comes down to what one is used to.

Alas, the hex vs. squares debate has been going on since the dawn of gaming, and one side is never going to convince the other. ;)

I like hex tiles too for the cartographic advantages they bring us. That said the current plan is to make the topographical module separate from the other things so you can go either way.

In response to the earlier complaint that this project would be too much work because we are supporting so many options, that is a slight misunderstanding. AXXXXE will be two things really. The first is the engine that will support all of this, and that will be highly configurable and extensible for anyone to build on top of. The second is a ruleset that will be 'officially' supported, which will most likely end up being whatever I come up with, as that is where I would be more familiar. I can help with the engine itself but I won't help as much as Koshling and AIAndy will, not by a long shot. The actual game though I'll thoroughly enjoy designing.
 
I just like to toss out ideas, but personally I would love to see th project go forward.

Also, hexes and squares, never bothered me. Both just require me to adjust how I view the map and what moves I make.
I tend to prefer hexes because the maps look more natural to me, and I like the greater possibilities.
It's like the great Pepsi vs Coke debate. I like both, but I prefer Pepsi.
 
Back
Top Bottom