Possible Use of HoF Mod for GOTM - now with POLL!

[DaviddesJ]

Moderator Action: This thread was created by moving posts from the GOTM 8 Pre-game thread to provide a discussion are for possible use of the HoF mod for GOTM - AlanH

Note that. during the transition, a post by Ainwood indicating that this is a live possibility got lost. Sorry!

Neat! First GOTM in a while that looks fun. Any new information about the HOF mod??

 

[Eqqman]

If this is the right place to make this comment, I don't favor having people be required to get extra software in order to play GoTM. It may have all the greatest features in the world, but I hear that from AoL too and I don't want their stuff on my machine either. Some people are just not comfortable having to go out and get extra things working in order to use their existing software. Please don't take steps that exclude them.

 

[azzaman333]

I wouldnt mind if the GOTM had an optional mod that you can use, as long as it is optional. (not required)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think we're at the point where we (the staff) are happy that we can technically support it (ie. the automatic upload will work; we can generate identical saves for HOF & non-HOF versions etc).

Is there a page somewhere that explains what the HOF mod does? (I found a couple of links that explain it's comprised of various other mods, or that list the changes with each new version of HOF, but I couldn't find anywhere that lists on one page exactly what HOF does, without requiring you to chase up lots of further links for the details).

 

[Lagashvili]

Haven't seen a page like that, but this is the most important feature of the HOF mod (from Dianthus):

It's mostly about security, though we've tried to add some cool and useful stuff to the mod as well. With the release of the SDK virtually the whole of the file format is now exposed to the public, which would make it pretty easy to write a tool to edit files. The HOF mod encrypts the save file, so making it harder for this to happen. Also some extra CRCs are stored for things we think were missed.

Enough for me to vote for mandatory use of the HOF mod.

 

[AlanH]

Enough for me to vote for mandatory use of the HOF mod.

The Mac version of Civ4 has just started shipping. Please note that making the HoF Mod mandatory would bar Mac players from GOTM competition, as it is Windows-only.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Mac version of Civ4 has just started shipping. Please note that making the HoF Mod mandatory would bar Mac players from GOTM competition, as it is Windows-only.

Obvious question: Is the Mac version guaranteed to be the exact identical same game? No minor differences in the code that would lead to small differences in gameplay? (If it isn't identical, that'd arguably cause a problem with allowing the GOTM on both platforms anyway. But if it is identical, how come the mod only works on Windows?)

 

[AlanH]

Is the Mac version guaranteed to be the exact identical same game?

There should be no difference in game play between the platforms (to be confirmed when we see Mac Civ4).

As far as I know Aspyr have taken the Civ4 v1.61 application code as-is and ported it to the Mac OS. This was the approach they took in porting Civ3, and it seems to have been successful in porting PtW version 1.27 and C3C version 1.22, warts and all. Mac players can compete on equal terms in Civ3 C/GOTMs.

But if it is identical, how come the mod only works on Windows?

The Windows version of Civ4 includes a default CvGameCore.dll file that can be overridden by a modded version created using the SDK. It's my understanding that the Mac version knows nothing about CvGameCore.dll, and that the default code is integrated into the Mac executable code. The protocols for communicating with a Windows .dll are alien to the Mac OS.

The HoF Mod includes a modded CvGameCore.dll that was developed in C++ using the SDK and compiled in Visual Studio. It will not, therefore, be compatible with the Mac version.

 

[DaveMcW]

So when is the Mac SDK coming out?

 

[Mutineer]

GOTM contain game spoilers. If they remove game spoilers modules and keep only security component of gotm mod then I would wellcome it.

 

[AlanH]

@DaveMcW: I'm not privy to Aspyr's release plans.

@Mutineer: I assume you mean "HOF", not "GOTM". Please can you explain what spoilers the HoF mod contains?

 

[Mutineer]

I allready explained it one's.

Diplomacy and tech trading.
Developers never intended +- numbers they provide for relationship to be summed up and show in spread sheet.
Number provided only to give people idea how there actions effect result of the game.
Hof mod stuff use very unconvetial definition of a spoiler. By there definition information that somehow can be obtain in the game can be used in mod.
Why we have graphic, historical names of units, etc? Because we want to play game, not a spreadshit.

That defile idea of the game. Idea of the game that people work out themself how get information they need it, not to stumble on it in convinietly provided spreadshit.

In any other game any occasion when information collected in one place in spreadshit call a spoiler.

HOF stuff define very funny definition of a spoiler. By there definition any information that can ge getted or calculated from some where in the game can be provided and not a spoiler. LoL!

By this definition I can devise my own AI mod that help me play and calculate optimum sequence of city development, ties development and whipping and it is not a spoiler. LoL!

Game is a game so long as there somethign to be discovered, found out. It is trill of discovery that make game a game. If all information convinietly provided in a spreadshit it is become just mathematical formular. or yes, at the end of the day it is a mathematical formular, but it become game if it is hided and dressed and connected to our human nature and become complex enogth so we can not calculate it in our head!
Everything that take of that does diminished the game and is a spoiler by common definition of this word!

 

[AlanH]

Thank for your explanation. I have not seen those detailed points before, and I am sure they will create some debate. It is probably best to have that debate in another thread, as many players will not be able to post here once they start this game. So I shall move the relevant posts to a new thread specially to discuss possible use of the HOF Mod.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Mutineer has posted many times before about how he feels that we shouldn't let players automate some of the tedious features of the game. I strongly disagree, and so far, in these threads, he is the only one who has expressed such views. I think that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it seems to me that players do overwhelmingly favor allowing the use of tools that provide no extra information but simply make it easier to check the information that already exists in the game.

As a personal observation, I'll probably play GOTM if I can use the HOF mod with its extra automation and monitoring features, and I probably won't if I can't. I'll get the same results either way, but it's just a lot easier and more fun to play when the computer does the things that computers are good at, and I can focus on the things that humans are good at.

 

[Mutineer]

Escuse me, you avoide my point and lie.

I express my opinion only one's and my opinion finsihed to be hided in a middle of some obscure techical thread about HOF mod.
Second and more important, you just avoided a main point of my post.

I will not post about it any longer, I do not see the point.
You should really rename you Hall of Fame, to Hall of fame for civilisation for Dummies.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Escuse me, you avoide my point and lie.

Not a lie.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4035365&postcount=99
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4038863&postcount=104
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4042665&postcount=106
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4047433&postcount=112

 

[Mutineer]

That could be count as only one's, as it is sequential posts in one thread explaining my point.
It is execly thread I am revering to, obscure HOF technical thread My initial post were moved to.
So, when you sad that I post about it many times, it was a lie.

You seems to insist on attacking me personally, well, as I sad, I see no point to post my opinions.

 

[superslug]

You should really rename you Hall of Fame, to Hall of fame for civilisation for Dummies.

Well, I guess that would be shorter than the formal Hall of Fame of High Scores and Fastest Finishes, but then again it's longer than the usual 'HOF'.

Nah, I think we'll keep the current nomenclature.

 

[Mad Professor]

I think that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it seems to me that players do overwhelmingly favor allowing the use of tools that provide no extra information but simply make it easier to check the information that already exists in the game.

"Overwhelmingly" is not a word I'd use, just reading down this thread so far. Careful with the words!

As a personal observation, I'll probably play GOTM if I can use the HOF mod with its extra automation and monitoring features, and I probably won't if I can't.

My personal observation is the contrary. I don't have HoF, don't really want it on my computer, and from what I've been able to find on it (and that was hard to find, sorry!) I'm not very enthusiastic about getting it. If HoF becomes compulsory for playing GOTM I will almost certianly not play.

I'll get the same results either way, but it's just a lot easier and more fun to play when the computer does the things that computers are good at, and I can focus on the things that humans are good at.

Same results either way? Well, if you're a very good player, which you probably are, then that's probably true. I have a bit more to learn about the game yet before I could say that!

Generally, I'm all in favour of letting computers do what they are very good at, but I'm not convinced this is that simple.

 

[KingdomBrunel]

My personal observation is the contrary. I don't have HoF, don't really want it on my computer, and from what I've been able to find on it (and that was hard to find, sorry!) I'm not very enthusiastic about getting it.

I second that, pretty much exactly. I'd probably still play - but can't see a killer reason to change the default behaviour of a fantastic game.