Possible Use of HoF Mod for GOTM - now with POLL!

[AlanH]

If it's not compulsory then its security benefits fly out the window, as players who don't use it would not be under the same constraints as those who do.

 

[DaviddesJ]

If it's not compulsory then its security benefits fly out the window, as players who don't use it would not be under the same constraints as those who do.

I don't entirely agree with that. If the results page indicates whether a player used the HOF mod, then some players (particularly the consistent top players) will probably go out of their way to use the mod, to ensure that other people respect their results. Since the only "prize" from the GOTM is recognition by your peers, people can be influenced by that. Conversely, among the many "less serious" participants, who aren't expecting to be #1 or even #10, maybe security is less important, if at all important.

But, to my view, the main advantage of the HOF mod is not to prevent cheating, but to allow the use of some popular mods while not opening the door for arbitrary mods which may dramatically change the play.

 

[AlanH]

However, there was also a mod that was required that granted additional resources. If I'm remembering correctly, they were the Meditteranean (sp?) resources.

Yes - that's the one that we stopped using two years ago. A key reason for dropping it was the negative reactions we received from players who objected to installing anything non-standard, and we are seeing some of that again here.

Some bits of the old mod are still used in the SGOTMs, but I don't see that as relevant.

Either way, as you have mentioned, mods have been used on several occaisions in past G/COTM games. I totally forgot about the Australian mod game.

I only mentioned the Austrian one because someone else would have caught it if I had ignored it. And I would point out that it caused significant technical hassle when we did use it.

I'm merely trying to point out to those non-Civ3 G/COTM players that mods have been used before in this type of game and worked well. I see no reason why it can't be continued here.

I think it's debatable whether they worked well. There were significant technical issues throughout the period when they were used extensively, giving rise to frustrations for staff and players. I'll take some credit for having improved this for vanilla players by creating the integrated installers, but there are still people who cannot get their heads around them.

And don't understimate the strength of feeling that has been displayed in the past. There were many people who objected to the principle of a modded game, and some walked away from GOTM as a result.

 

[AlanH]

I don't entirely agree with that.

What a surprise

The security benefits are not only passive. The mod provides additional information that it could be considered unfair of us to consider if we don't have it for all players.

If the results page indicates whether a player used the HOF mod, then some players (particularly the consistent top players) will probably go out of their way to use the mod, to ensure that other people respect their results.

Not if they feel strongly about it, as some posters here seem to .

But, to my view, the main advantage of the HOF mod is not to prevent cheating, but to allow the use of some popular mods while not opening the door for arbitrary mods which may dramatically change the play.

That's my point. The security features become irrelevant if it's optional, and it becomes a way to support "player assistant" mods.

 

[godotnut]

First of all, I wonder if people who haven't tried out the HOF mod know that it allows administrators to see if someone has gone back and reloaded. Make sense?

I've read that some people feel "addicted to reloading." The HOF mod will ween you off of that real quick.

That means the mod goes a long way toward creating an even playing field. The mod creates more fairness in the game. And, as has been noted, the default mode of the mod doesn't change the game in any way whatsoever, except that it allows us to have greater assurance that we are all playing fairly.

If the results page indicates whether a player used the HOF mod, then some players (particularly the consistent top players) will probably go out of their way to use the mod, to ensure that other people respect their results. Since the only "prize" from the GOTM is recognition by your peers, people can be influenced by that. Conversely, among the many "less serious" participants, who aren't expecting to be #1 or even #10, maybe security is less important, if at all important.

I think this is an excellent point. I certainly would take a score or time more seriously if I knew that there was a mod working to ensure no cheating. And for folks who don't care about these things, they can just "opt out" and still enjoy the game.

I used to think I wanted it to be mandatory, but I've changed my mind in part for the reason just mentioned, and in part because the existence of the spoiler threads also throws security out the window (as AlanH put it). So to have real security, we would have to get rid of the discussion threads, and I don't think anyone wants to do that.

So now I think the ideal situation is one where the mod is offered and recommended (not required) for play. Then, let the conversations in the threads and the clear advantages of the mod push people toward using it. As time goes on, I think the more competitive players will naturally flock to the HOF mod, and the more casual players can blow it off and still enjoy the GOTM experience.

Real security would seem to be impossible in the GOTM as we understand and enjoy it. That's why I favor "elective security" for people who care about such things.

This solution will also prevent a lot of headaches from people suffering extreme game-play instability and, I would imagine, for game administrators having to deal with people upset because their games are excluded for replaying turns.

 

[DaviddesJ]

The security benefits are not only passive. The mod provides additional information that it could be considered unfair of us to consider if we don't have it for all players.

It seems perfectly fair to me. One thing that players who choose the HOF mod do, is sign up for a higher level of scrutiny. If they don't want that, it's fine with me if they don't. They get a benefit (more recognition and respect for their results, which is presumably one of the things that some GOTM players seek), in exchange for a cost.

Really, the only downside of a voluntary system is that you and the GOTM staff have to support two versions. Otherwise, it seems win-win to me.

 

[Mutineer]

I do not see why you so resisting to remove all non security related features from HOF mod. Then no one will object to it.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I do not see why you so resisting to remove all non security related features from HOF mod. Then no one will object to it.

I would object.

 

[Methos]

I do not see why you so resisting to remove all non security related features from HOF mod. Then no one will object to it.

You can ask the same question about how you are so resistant to not using the mod.

Then no one will object to it.

I would! What's the point in using the mod without the features? Plus, many have already stated they don't like the requirement of using a mod for GOTM, so even if we used your option it still requires a mod to play, thereby having people object to it.

 

[Mutineer]

I would! What's the point in using the mod without the features? Plus, many have already stated they don't like the requirement of using a mod for GOTM, so even if we used your option it still requires a mod to play, thereby having people object to it.

I was thinking that main reason to introduce HOF mod is an INCREASE in SECURITY.
Many would like that, as it will level playing field and many would not have any objections again it.

All additional features are just whimm and opinion of people who created and included then and are very dubious in nature.

 

[Nares]

I was thinking that main reason to introduce HOF mod is an INCREASE in SECURITY.

That sounds like the only way to sell it to people who are otherwise adverse to using a mod.

I'm curious as to how it's more secure than the current system. My understanding was that, at least to a certain degree, the save game file is protected already.

On a more practical level, there are people who specifically cannot download mods for whatever reason. Beyond that, if it was to be introduced as mandatory, would it at least be a one-time deal? To be more specific, would it be so complete as to not require any future updates? Or, if updates were available, would older versions of the mod still be compatible with the saves if future versions of the mod are introduced?

I'm not entirely adverse to using it myself, though it would necessitate some additional steps in terms of connecting my CIV machine to the internet. In my own case, I run CIV on a laptop, and at least have the luxury of ease of transport in the event it was made mandatory (I lost my flash drive, much to my own disappointment, as I rarely lose anything ever).

Though the argument against a mandatory mod due to inability to download the mod is relatively flimsy in that the GoTM saves themselves need to be downloaded. Then again, save games can easily be stored on something as small as a floppy disk. A mod would, presumably, be much larger (making life far more difficult for dial-up users; I remember how bad it was to download sub-1MB files with that; I can't even imagine it anymore, though I personally stop bothering with the internet when I do not have access to some form of broadband).

 

[pigswill]

I can understand that in any kind of competition (with our without prizes) you need a level playing field for meaningful comparision and if you bundle some player assist software then that's a bonus and I don't have a problem with that.
The problem I have is that while I'm not a complete civ noob I am a complete software noob (sad but true) and I don't actually know how to load and run any mod.

 

[Denniz]

I'm curious as to how it's more secure than the current system. My understanding was that, at least to a certain degree, the save game file is protected already.

That would be telling.

On a more practical level, there are people who specifically cannot download mods for whatever reason. Beyond that, if it was to be introduced as mandatory, would it at least be a one-time deal? To be more specific, would it be so complete as to not require any future updates? Or, if updates were available, would older versions of the mod still be compatible with the saves if future versions of the mod are introduced?

There will be periodic updates for various reasons. The versions go into a new mod folder each time so you can keep/use older versions. The HOF site provides the ability to download the saves unprotected so they can be open using the current version of the mod. It is probably safe to assume that ability would be extended to the GOTM site.

Then again, save games can easily be stored on something as small as a floppy disk. A mod would, presumably, be much larger (making life far more difficult for dial-up users; I remember how bad it was to download sub-1MB files with that; I can't even imagine it anymore, though I personally stop bothering with the internet when I do not have access to some form of broadband).

1.12MB self extracting zip. There is some extra documentation content there that could be removed to shrink it further, if necessary.

I can understand that in any kind of competition (with our without prizes) you need a level playing field for meaningful comparision and if you bundle some player assist software then that's a bonus and I don't have a problem with that.
The problem I have is that while I'm not a complete civ noob I am a complete software noob (sad but true) and I don't actually know how to load and run any mod.

Any game saved with a Mod will ask to automatically load that Mod when you load the save. There are ways to make it load automatically with the start of Civ4, as well an option on the advanced menu.

 

[superslug]

Many would like that, as it will level playing field and many would not have any objections again it.

That was our biggest reason for mandating it in the Hall of Fame.

All additional features are just whimm and opinion of people who created and included then and are very dubious in nature.

Even though the HOF Mod itself is the direct work of Dianthus and Denniz, most of the included mods were created by the general modding community, requested by our players for inclusion, and done so when permission was granted from the mod authors. It's been a collaborative process!

The one major mod that was created by HOF Staff (primarily Denniz) was Mapfinder, which has raised HOF play considerably in quality and fun value. I'd hardly call that "dubious" or "whimm".

Of course Mapfinder wouldn't do GOTM any good, but in the HOF I hoped it demonstrated the give and take approach of the mod. It's not just something we forced down people's throats.

I'm curious as to how it's more secure than the current system. My understanding was that, at least to a certain degree, the save game file is protected already.

With the publication of the SDK code, the save game file is very vulnerable, especially over time. Another thing to consider is that we've addressed a few minor bugs in the game that could have proven exploitable in gameplay.

 

[DaveMcW]

If you could fix the pop-rush-with-forge bug, I would use the HOF mod for all my games.

 

[Dianthus]

If you could fix the pop-rush-with-forge bug, I would use the HOF mod for all my games.

Have you got any details about that bug Dave? Maybe a link to a thread with the bug report?

 

[grahamiam]

Blake @ RB/APO has a fix -> http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1079&page=6&pp=10

 

[DaveMcW]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159109 under the Whip 'til your hands bleed section.

The ideal formula is to simply give 37 per pop instead of trying to find a useful multiple of 30.

 

[ainwood]

Superslug, dianthus & denniz - thanks for stopping by.

Can you give us any details on how the HOF mod affects people wanting to look at other people's games (or people wanting to look at the games of HOF players with a vanilla install?)

 

[Denniz]

Superslug, dianthus & denniz - thanks for stopping by.

Can you give us any details on how the HOF mod affects people wanting to look at other people's games (or people wanting to look at the games of HOF players with a vanilla install?)

A little background first. There are 4 main ways to use a mod:

1. Use the Advanced menu Mods option to select the mod from the list of available mods on your machine. Similar to playing one of the scenarios like "Greek world". Except that with the HOF Mod you start at the normal game menu like in vanilla.
2. Load a save file that was created while the mod was active. It stop Civ4 and restart with the required Mod before it will load that game.
3. load the mod on startup by change the CivilizationIV.ini file. Essentially using the mod all the time.
4. Load the mod on startup by creating a shortcut with a command line option pointing to the Mod. (I just copied the existing shortcut and added "mod= mods\HOF-1.61.004" after the exe.)

So, a vanilla GOTM file would not run with the HOF Mod (or any other). Instead it would request Mod of "None", which is Vanilla, BTW. The bad thing with that is that there is a bug that prevents it from finding a Mod named "None". That's why no one recommends method 3 above. Method 4 is the best one, IMHO.

For a GOTM file created using the HOF Mod, you would have to use the HOF Mod to play or view it. You would probably use method 2 or 4 depending on your preferences.

For games using a prior version of the HOF Mod, Dianthus created an extra download option to remove the "Locked Modified Assets" flag and update the save file so it asks for the latest version of the HOF Mod.