Post 0.41h AI feedback needed
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
readercolin
King
- Joined
- May 7, 2009
- Messages
- 604
Played a few games now on my laptop, which means small maps. Using Patch I.
Sidar, Monarch difficulty, great plains map. I started next to the balsferas (literally) - their capital ended up 3 squares from mine. Wiping them out took longer than it usually would - they had archers before I has axmen, but then had trouble once I pulled out catapults and axmen. After that, I teched up a bit (got horse archers, FoL, and Priesthood), and attacked the Calibam after being invited into the war by the dwarves. Wiping them out, I faced vampires and summoned skeletons, but axmen, catapults, horse archers, and priests wiped them out. After this, I still had the lowest score (only time I wasn't at the bottom was when the calibam/balspheras had just 1 city left). My score is about 12-1400. The khazid are around 1400-1500, the Bannor around 2200. I'll probably be able to win this one, but its not guaranteed - will probably wipe out the khazid next and then hope I can take on the bannor. Khazid are following RoK, have (and lost) Arathendain and Bambur, and also have iron working and Maros. No idea about the Bannor tech levels.
Another recent game, summoned hyborem as Cardith Lorda around turn 115 (normal speed, monarch difficulty). Ended up next to the Grigori, who were using warriors, though they did have a heroic horseman. So far, easy pushover. Other players are the Clan, the Kurotaes, and 2 other unknowns. Unless they manage to significantly surprise me, the game is already in the bag. Not exactly surprising given the situation.
A summary of what i've seen.
AI is using much larger stacks - standard stack size from Noble to Monarch seems to be around 10 units minimum for an offensive stack, at least in the early game. Midgame, stack size seems to be more 20 minimum, and when one stack dies they'll build another and send it out, instead of trickling enemies in. Techwise, they have been able to outtech me, unless I have an incredible start. They will actually get all the early economy techs now, instead of going straight for ironworking and stall out. The downside - their favorite unit seems to be the archer, a not very good attacker. They also seem to like to spam units, but not use them all that effectively.
Overall, I'm pleased that they aren't a complete pushover. There's still room for improvement, but it is no longer a case of start the game, ok, I've already won, now how do I want to win this time. I usually still win, but its no longer guaranteed from the very start of the game.
-Colin
Sidar, Monarch difficulty, great plains map. I started next to the balsferas (literally) - their capital ended up 3 squares from mine. Wiping them out took longer than it usually would - they had archers before I has axmen, but then had trouble once I pulled out catapults and axmen. After that, I teched up a bit (got horse archers, FoL, and Priesthood), and attacked the Calibam after being invited into the war by the dwarves. Wiping them out, I faced vampires and summoned skeletons, but axmen, catapults, horse archers, and priests wiped them out. After this, I still had the lowest score (only time I wasn't at the bottom was when the calibam/balspheras had just 1 city left). My score is about 12-1400. The khazid are around 1400-1500, the Bannor around 2200. I'll probably be able to win this one, but its not guaranteed - will probably wipe out the khazid next and then hope I can take on the bannor. Khazid are following RoK, have (and lost) Arathendain and Bambur, and also have iron working and Maros. No idea about the Bannor tech levels.
Another recent game, summoned hyborem as Cardith Lorda around turn 115 (normal speed, monarch difficulty). Ended up next to the Grigori, who were using warriors, though they did have a heroic horseman. So far, easy pushover. Other players are the Clan, the Kurotaes, and 2 other unknowns. Unless they manage to significantly surprise me, the game is already in the bag. Not exactly surprising given the situation.
A summary of what i've seen.
AI is using much larger stacks - standard stack size from Noble to Monarch seems to be around 10 units minimum for an offensive stack, at least in the early game. Midgame, stack size seems to be more 20 minimum, and when one stack dies they'll build another and send it out, instead of trickling enemies in. Techwise, they have been able to outtech me, unless I have an incredible start. They will actually get all the early economy techs now, instead of going straight for ironworking and stall out. The downside - their favorite unit seems to be the archer, a not very good attacker. They also seem to like to spam units, but not use them all that effectively.
Overall, I'm pleased that they aren't a complete pushover. There's still room for improvement, but it is no longer a case of start the game, ok, I've already won, now how do I want to win this time. I usually still win, but its no longer guaranteed from the very start of the game.
-Colin
I've seen AI cities in the very early game with ~10 warriors, giving me the impression that they probably couldn't have built up much else. That doesn't seem very productive to me... wouldn't they have had better results from building several warriors and a couple buildings?
Or maybe I just build too many buildings myself...
Or maybe I just build too many buildings myself...
Kael
Deity
I apologize for not providing relevant information: I was playing on Classical Start, so there were plenty of buildings they could have chosen from. Granaries, smokehouses, elder councils, markets, etc.
Avahz Darkwood
Emperor
I had one game were Hyborem was summoned and he never did anything. The map was pretty much already full so he was not allowed to settle any cities. Basium is getting stronger because of all the SODs running around, but hybo is being summon late in game. May I suggest forcing a city in the square he is summoned to or letting him take one like Basium...
Nikis-Knight
Deity
umm, wow... I was just attacked by >100 centaur archers/chargers. (monarch diff, I think). Easily killed 7 highly promoted vampires, 2 speakes, 4 archmages, a lich, hemah and assorted hangers-on that I expected to steam roll an ally after a back-stab DoW.
Moral of the story, pay attention to those little numbers in parenthesis in the unit list.
Moral of the story, pay attention to those little numbers in parenthesis in the unit list.
Yeah. The AI likes to leave huge stacks of units wandering around its territory now, but once it decides to make a move, it can be really quite scary. In my current game I decided to expand over to the next continent by stealing one of Flauros's cities. His retribution took a long time to come, but when it did it was in the form of a stack of 100 moroi + Saverous.
Luckily I was playing Elohim, so (after throwing my uber-monk at Saverous, and luckily managing to win at 58% odds) I hit the panic button and started spamming archers like mad. Thankfully the 30 turns was enough time to crank out a good number of archers, and move over Baron Duin and his werewolves from the other continent. Of course by that time, Flauros's stack had grown to over 130. That was one hell of a battle.
Luckily I was playing Elohim, so (after throwing my uber-monk at Saverous, and luckily managing to win at 58% odds) I hit the panic button and started spamming archers like mad. Thankfully the 30 turns was enough time to crank out a good number of archers, and move over Baron Duin and his werewolves from the other continent. Of course by that time, Flauros's stack had grown to over 130. That was one hell of a battle.
Monkeyfinger
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2006
- Messages
- 2,002
For the record, all the big AI stacks I've seen have been happy to move on me as soon as war gets declared - it's just easy to fake them out into turning around by raiding behind them.
Mounted was already underrated and kickass, now it's the best unit type there is.
Mounted was already underrated and kickass, now it's the best unit type there is.
So trying the game with Patch J. Holy crap this is intense. My buddy and I are playing prince with raging barbs and its nuts.
Only question I have to ask is. Is the way lairs work really necessary with the new AI? You got lairs spawning mobs on turn 6 on normal. they are immediately attacking which they never did before and on top of that if you try to destroy them you can spawn str 6 units with an accompanyment of 4 fawns???? on turn 7? So your choices are take your starting 2 units and garrison on the lair and hope to god that nothing else attacks?
Pretty dumb IMO. that's not skill that's luck. Maybe the super insane players know of a way to end up with like 5 units within 7 turns but it escapes me lol.
Only question I have to ask is. Is the way lairs work really necessary with the new AI? You got lairs spawning mobs on turn 6 on normal. they are immediately attacking which they never did before and on top of that if you try to destroy them you can spawn str 6 units with an accompanyment of 4 fawns???? on turn 7? So your choices are take your starting 2 units and garrison on the lair and hope to god that nothing else attacks?
Pretty dumb IMO. that's not skill that's luck. Maybe the super insane players know of a way to end up with like 5 units within 7 turns but it escapes me lol.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Lairs spawn slower on lower difficulty. Also, they probably won't be able to beat your starting warrior until they have 2 or 3, by which time you should be able to get another.
But yeah, some starts are tough.
I think such big stacks are actually detrimental to the ai, although good for killing those uber heroes. But in reality they'd do much better with 4 stacks of 25-30 than 1 of 115; they could hit more targets at once and that way and be able to retain some momentum even when surprised or when needing to rest.
Also, they need to press their advantage; if they take out a stack, that is probably prime time to go for a city to two, since it is rare to have a large attack stack and enormous defense.
Of course I know these are further refinements and probably beyond the tactical level targeted so far.
But yeah, some starts are tough.
I think such big stacks are actually detrimental to the ai, although good for killing those uber heroes. But in reality they'd do much better with 4 stacks of 25-30 than 1 of 115; they could hit more targets at once and that way and be able to retain some momentum even when surprised or when needing to rest.
Also, they need to press their advantage; if they take out a stack, that is probably prime time to go for a city to two, since it is rare to have a large attack stack and enormous defense.
Of course I know these are further refinements and probably beyond the tactical level targeted so far.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Previously lizardmen tended not to attack cities directly. Maybe that has changed, I don't have much experience with the new version. If so, go ahead and disregard by last comments on the matter.
I think the issue may have been that I had no unit in my capitol (because my warrior was 2 squares away on a barrow. The lair was out of sight range). So on turn 6 or so the lizzie spawned and with the new AI apparently determined "cap is unguarded I'm going to rock that" and moved 2 squares. The BTS code for some reason decided not to tell me "THE ENEMY IS NEAR CAPITOL" and the next turn he moved 2 more squares and I received "The Amurite civilization has been destroyed!" While moving my scout around blissfully. It may function quite differently when you have a warrior there where the lizard won't try to attack. Might be worth testing.
I can also confirm that the ljosofar died very early so looks like the guesses about the scouts is correct.
I can also confirm that the ljosofar died very early so looks like the guesses about the scouts is correct.
Raging Barbarians is meant to be a challenge mode, which it is now that the barbarians dont just throw themselves at your cities one at a time.
EverNoob
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2006
- Messages
- 571
In my current game it seems the Amurites and I wanted to build our 1st city on the same site. I managed to put down my settler first and beat the Amurites to it. However instead of picking another spot to put down their settler, the Amurite settler just stood there doing nothing for the longest time. I don't remember when they actually decided to settle, but it was way later.
I don't know how you can solve this one, but Jonas got wrecked by the grigori in this game, because he took a city form Einon, and then marched a huge army dozens of tiles away, even after making peace with Einon, as his homeland was crushed by Cassiel. Jonas did not even started moving the long train of forces back towards his homeland until he had already lost 2 cities.
Ok, it's great that you've taught the AI to build huge stacks of doom now, but perhaps it needs to be toned down just a little. In my current game I got into an early war with Alexis. She kept marching bloodpets into my territory, only for them to mysteriously disappear. I was enormously perplexed for a while, until I realised that they were disbanding because she couldn't meet the upkeep/supply costs. The AI probably needs to realise it should stop building military units at that point, or ideally not get to that stage in the first place. The worst part was that in order to survive against her army, I was forced to tank my own economy spamming warriors of my own.
War is hell.
Smakemupagus
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2006
- Messages
- 113
in my first 3 games (patch i) i had seen the size 50+, passive AI stacks mid and late game.
Anyway, just thought i should give an update: in my latest game a Calabim AI attacked at what seemed to be exactly the right time. They were boxed in, built the biggest army of Moroi they could afford (~20) and started steamrolling. i drove back the first wave with Treant army world spell, but i couldn't afford to build a huge army since I had too many cities. The AIs second wave (~12 units) broke through. It was actually played really well. This was patch J, and also was early in the game obviously.
Anyway, just thought i should give an update: in my latest game a Calabim AI attacked at what seemed to be exactly the right time. They were boxed in, built the biggest army of Moroi they could afford (~20) and started steamrolling. i drove back the first wave with Treant army world spell, but i couldn't afford to build a huge army since I had too many cities. The AIs second wave (~12 units) broke through. It was actually played really well. This was patch J, and also was early in the game obviously.
