Quoth the Raven
Warlord
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- Jan 8, 2016
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If you are looking for more of a challenge on any map, turn off technology trading and do not use slavery.
Post a (tough) Deity map for me to play
- Thread starter Lain
- Start date
@Lain watching your videos has, once again, brought me back to civ. The work and commitment you put into them are simply amazing 
That Willem map
I'm gonna need something softer than that in order to shake off the rust... But totally recommended for Lain, if you feel like suffering.
On a sidenote, @AcaMetis I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "Semi-Isolated", but the widely accepted understanding of this term is "alone on a continent with a single AI until Optics" (which is not the case with the JC and Willy maps)
That Willem map
I'm gonna need something softer than that in order to shake off the rust... But totally recommended for Lain, if you feel like suffering.
On a sidenote, @AcaMetis I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "Semi-Isolated", but the widely accepted understanding of this term is "alone on a continent with a single AI until Optics" (which is not the case with the JC and Willy maps)
AcaMetis
Deity
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- May 21, 2018
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Yeah, that's an issue with old personal definitions not matching established definitions. In case it wasn't clear from my post count I'm still new here 
. In any case, my definition for "semi-isolated" is "a map where you cannot meet all rival AIs without Astronomy". As for "isolated", my definition is "a map where you cannot make contact with any other civilization without Astronomy". Yes, I draw the line at Astronomy and not at Optics. My reasoning is that if a 5xp boat (Flanking I -> Sentry) can allow you to make early contact the map isn't necessarily an isolation map, there's a way to make contact with nothing more than Sailing. Admittedly killing 5xp worth of barbs is not reliable, nor is getting a one tile wide ocean dividing your landmass reliable, but my definitions tend to favor theory over practice.
. In any case, my definition for "semi-isolated" is "a map where you cannot meet all rival AIs without Astronomy". As for "isolated", my definition is "a map where you cannot make contact with any other civilization without Astronomy". Yes, I draw the line at Astronomy and not at Optics. My reasoning is that if a 5xp boat (Flanking I -> Sentry) can allow you to make early contact the map isn't necessarily an isolation map, there's a way to make contact with nothing more than Sailing. Admittedly killing 5xp worth of barbs is not reliable, nor is getting a one tile wide ocean dividing your landmass reliable, but my definitions tend to favor theory over practice.
AcaMetis, I thought you where a regular here and only lost your old account or something, I thought this because of all your thoughtful posts.
But welcome to the forums!
It's very good with fresh views that can help nuance old truths and conventions, and the thoughts you have about optics etc are valuable.
Often it's helpful to not use lingo that is generally accepted and understod to describe different things.
The situation that is special, that one is trying to describe with the term "Semi-Isolation" (as far as I see it!) is that you have one AI that only sees YOU and no other AI.
This leads you to being the only target for wars, and generally it's also very problematic to get trades going because the AI want to keep it's monopoly on most techs.
There are many varitations and special cases, but thats the general thing we are trying to describe.
Say for example ff you are on a continent with mansa musa, and tokugawa, but tokugawa has blocked the center making it impossible for you and MM to contact each other for some time, this situation will have alot of the flavours that a true semi-iso situation has, but not all.
But welcome to the forums!
It's very good with fresh views that can help nuance old truths and conventions, and the thoughts you have about optics etc are valuable.
Often it's helpful to not use lingo that is generally accepted and understod to describe different things.
The situation that is special, that one is trying to describe with the term "Semi-Isolation" (as far as I see it!) is that you have one AI that only sees YOU and no other AI.
This leads you to being the only target for wars, and generally it's also very problematic to get trades going because the AI want to keep it's monopoly on most techs.
There are many varitations and special cases, but thats the general thing we are trying to describe.
Say for example ff you are on a continent with mansa musa, and tokugawa, but tokugawa has blocked the center making it impossible for you and MM to contact each other for some time, this situation will have alot of the flavours that a true semi-iso situation has, but not all.
AcaMetis
Deity
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Definitely never thought to look at it from the perspective of the AI. The issue I see with that definition is that if you're alone with Genghis Khan and Shaka you're still in the same effective semi-iso position, just with two AIs that can technically see each other even if they'd never plot on each other given First Impression and relative military strength. Of course my definition of lumping being isolated with Monty in the same boat as Monty being isolated by himself is obviously even more flawed. I wouldn't know where to draw a different line, though. I'd say "X number of rival AIs you can make contact with", but where to draw the line? 3? 4? 50% of the amount of rivals on the map, rounded up or down?
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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- Mar 17, 2013
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Big difference between 1 or 2 (or more AIs), cos you can trade with those 2 after getting them pleased (in case of Shaka, most AIs also trade at cautious). In semi-Iso when alone with 1 AI, you can only tech trade at friendly, much more difficult.
For isolated, not very realistic (esp on deity) to get 5xp galleys, or guessing there might be a spot where they can make contact..
you know as map maker, but 0% chance for Lain finding & doing that on the Raggy map.
For isolated, not very realistic (esp on deity) to get 5xp galleys, or guessing there might be a spot where they can make contact..
you know as map maker, but 0% chance for Lain finding & doing that on the Raggy map.
@Lain watching your videos has, once again, brought me back to civ. The work and commitment you put into them are simply amazing
Glad to hear you are back! I have seen alot of your posts on the forum and I appreciate your return!
I did manage that in the NC game with Elizabeth. Ramsy founded a early religion and it spread to me early and his favourite civic is organized religion. I also had some resources that he needed.
It's very rare that you can pull something like that of, and even IF you do it, you still can only trade some techs. The possibility for tech brokering isn't there so the relative utility of trading is still less.
AcaMetis
Deity
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On the Raggy map you could, as far as my testing found, barely make out the outline of someone else's culture if you looked real close at the ocean after the relevant city reached it's third ring of culture, and from there you could position a Sentry boat to make contact. In other situations, and this is why I'm hesitant to call such a situation full iso, a 5xp mounted unit also could have worked. 5xp on a mounted unit is viable with Barbs on or completely free if you get HBR and build a Stable, it just couldn't work on the Raggy map since you didn't have access to Horses.
That all said I'll admit that on Deity you're not likely to go out of your way to parade a 5xp Chariot around just in the off chance you can make contact, or in absence of Horses, getting a 5xp boat to do the same until some AI's city reaches the required level of culture to make contact or you get Optics (and then Astronomy 1, maybe 2 turns later). The tech trade at Friendly thing is also a good argument for 1 AI being a different boat than 2 AIs, regardless of what combination of Mansa/Monty/Toku you're dealing with. Though I'm still weary of calling a map full iso when you're a 5xp unit away from contact no matter how unlikely...actually, could the AI force early contact if they happen to put a Sentry unit in the right location? Do AIs even ever grab the Sentry promotion given that they cheat the vision rules anyway? It didn't matter on the Raggy map since the contact point was on literally the other side of the island, but if contact could be made by an AI putting a Sentry unit in their capitol, is there any chance of that happening?
That all said I'll admit that on Deity you're not likely to go out of your way to parade a 5xp Chariot around just in the off chance you can make contact, or in absence of Horses, getting a 5xp boat to do the same until some AI's city reaches the required level of culture to make contact or you get Optics (and then Astronomy 1, maybe 2 turns later). The tech trade at Friendly thing is also a good argument for 1 AI being a different boat than 2 AIs, regardless of what combination of Mansa/Monty/Toku you're dealing with. Though I'm still weary of calling a map full iso when you're a 5xp unit away from contact no matter how unlikely...actually, could the AI force early contact if they happen to put a Sentry unit in the right location? Do AIs even ever grab the Sentry promotion given that they cheat the vision rules anyway? It didn't matter on the Raggy map since the contact point was on literally the other side of the island, but if contact could be made by an AI putting a Sentry unit in their capitol, is there any chance of that happening?
After many, oh so many, like a seriously ungodly amount of reloads, I have obtained a new map. The start for Willem van Orange:Spoiler :
Why it's worth playing? Let's just say that this map should be a decent test of one's diplo skills.
Spoiler T15 surrounding land spoiler :
This map I think is very hard.
You play as Alexander.
Continents with all settings standard.
I did choose all AIs, and I rolled the map for some times untill I found this one, I did change the players and two other AIs starting locations to get the kind of setup I had in mind.
The start is probably abit to generous, but we have seen so many plains cows for awhile now so I think this can be nice.
Also IIRC the request is specifically for non-cooked maps, so I not dare remove/replace/add any resource.
You play as Alexander.
Continents with all settings standard.
I did choose all AIs, and I rolled the map for some times untill I found this one, I did change the players and two other AIs starting locations to get the kind of setup I had in mind.
The start is probably abit to generous, but we have seen so many plains cows for awhile now so I think this can be nice.
Also IIRC the request is specifically for non-cooked maps, so I not dare remove/replace/add any resource.
Spoiler Starting Screen :
Spoiler Isolation? :
Spoiler Why is this difficult? Turn ~12 :
Spoiler Why is this difficult? Turn ~40 :
Spoiler Why is this difficult? OpticsContact :
Spoiler Why is this fun? :) :
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Played it for a bit. I think it can be fun to watch on video, but it most likely won't be very hard for the reasons you've stated yourself: PHI leader and good land. Might be a good map to slightly relieve the pressure after that Pacal map nightmare thoNo takers on the Alexander map? Would probably be good if someone better than me gives it a thumbs up or down before lain spends the effort on a lets play.
I feel for poor lain...
Evil Fredrich!!
Thanks for giving it a try!
It would certainly be educational for me to see how to handle it.
