Praets At Deity at Normal Speed

[MarigoldRan]

1. With HAs, you don't bring siege. Same with the initial push of praets.

2. There's a lot of bias on the strategy forums for a certain way of play. Huge/Marathon is an accepted part of the game, just like standard/normal. Instead of calling this the "strategy" forum, it should instead be called the "standard/normal strategy forums and anyone else who plays on different settings are newbs forum."

3. Turning off tech trades is NOT basically cheating. I think Rhino did a series with NO TECH TRADES and everyone was like, "OH THAT'S AWESOME." And then I mention the same thing, and some people are like, "oh you're cheating." What a biased ----.

 

[MarigoldRan]

And another downtrodden peasant, err, emperor raises his voice

What's up with that score fixation of yours, Seraiel? Score is calculated in a rather... useless way. It is in absolutely no way an indicative of skill or anything else. It is indicative of your population and finish date - which, obviously, depend on the map, opponents, leader, etc.

And what exactly is your fixation AGAINST playing for a high score? It's part of the game and it requires strategy too.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

And what exactly is your fixation AGAINST playing for a high score? It's part of the game and it requires strategy too.

There is nothing wrong with playing for score.

Equating more score with more skill is objectively incorrect however. Even his HoF rarely rewards score...it's what around 10% of the categories, if that? Something very low. There is a reason.

 

[Archbob]

1. With HAs, you don't bring siege. Same with the initial push of praets.

2. There's a lot of bias on the strategy forums for a certain way of play. Huge/Marathon is an accepted part of the game, just like standard/normal. Instead of calling this the "strategy" forum, it should instead be called the "standard/normal strategy forums and anyone else who plays on different settings are newbs forum."

3. Turning off tech trades is NOT basically cheating. I think Rhino did a series with NO TECH TRADES and everyone was like, "OH THAT'S AWESOME." And then I mention the same thing, and some people are like, "oh you're cheating." What a biased ----.

Your basically turning on options that make the game easier to win. Games on Quick and Normal speed are harder to win than Marathon ones. Your basically picking diety and tuning the difficulty down a notch or two by your settings. Also, I never saw Rhino's series but I've always regarded it as cheating because it cripples the AIs more than it cripples you.

I don't consider games where you have to go to the custom options to be actual games unless your turning on options to make the game harder for yourself. If you have to turn on things on taking away tech trades, turning barbs off, etc, then your just making the game easier for yourself. If your a Diety player with those options turned off, your not a true "deity" player. Doing Marathon/Huge is ok(even though IMO, it does make the game quite a bit easier to win), because its a standard option in the game but turning off tech trade is not, its one of those options where its like "well, i can't beat the game normally, so I'm going to cripple the AI so I can win."

 

[Giant Wolfman]

I haven't worked my way up to the higher levels, so I could be misunderstanding some of the deity mechanics. But from what I can tell from the games I've lurked/followed, I think that no tech trading wouldn't be cheating per se, but could lower the difficulty a bit because it weakens the AI. Humans *can* be adept at running an espionage economy, as Rhino (for example) has demonstrated. As demonstrated, tech stealing is often much cheaper than simply researching the tech. The AI is not suited for this type of "research", and as such would have to self-research most techs if there's no trading.

 

[Archbob]

I haven't worked my way up to the higher levels, so I could be misunderstanding some of the deity mechanics. But from what I can tell from the games I've lurked/followed, I think that no tech trading wouldn't be cheating per se, but could lower the difficulty a bit because it weakens the AI. Humans *can* be adept at running an espionage economy, as Rhino (for example) has demonstrated. As demonstrated, tech stealing is often much cheaper than simply researching the tech. The AI is not suited for this type of "research", and as such would have to self-research most techs if there's no trading.

With no tech trading on high levels, as soon as I get the Preq techs for decent military units to defend, I bee-line computers(at least if I'm not by a ultra-aggro civ).

 

[cbucks]

No one is saying it's not an accepted part of the game. We are sayingit is easier and involves a different strategy than standard settings. Az did a video showing how no tech trades was easier as well. Without being snarky or getting defensive, do you admit those settings are easier?

 

[MarigoldRan]

I've never played with no tech trades.

It makes the game LONGER.

I'm finding standard/normal boring. Once the early classical rush is over, all you do is SIT in one place for the next 1000 years until you get cannons or Curs.

Standard/normal is wayyyyy too rushed.

By the way, I've pretty much won the first Roman game- the 1 gold mine and little food start. I caught up in tech because I noticed that none of the AI went for Education and Lib. So in a matter of 9 turns, I ran a Golden Age with a Prophet, bulbed Education with a scientist, Libbed Economics and got the Great Merchant, traded a lot, and used the merchant to get lots of money. Then I teched to Cannon, upgraded all the trebs and catas to cannons, and won with praet+ cannon.

 

[obsolete]

Equating more score with more skill is objectively incorrect however.

I used to think that playing for POINTS went out in the Atari days.

But seems there is a small minority who think that high-score is >> life-expectancy (re-roll attempts)

Even if this were true, Failaxis would have to improve their scoring system to be of accurate use.

 

[obsolete]

I'm finding standard/normal boring.

Well that's interesting. 99% of users find the speed-cheated games as BORING, since they are constantly waiting and waiting around for items to be created, and finally for techs to come in and so on.

But you for some reason always tend to find things opposite from everyone else.

 

[Archbob]

Get the civ with cataphracts or something if you want medieval war.

The funny thing is if you did random start and drew an island map, none of these cheese strategies would actually work.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Well that's interesting. 99% of users find the speed-cheated games as BORING, since they are constantly waiting and waiting around for items to be created, and finally for techs to come in and so on.

But you for some reason always tend to find things opposite from everyone else.

68% of statistics is a lie.

Ah, but what's the point of flaming you? You're *&^&% enough as it is.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Get the civ with cataphracts or something if you want medieval war.

The funny thing is if you did random start and drew an island map, none of these cheese strategies would actually work.

Yes. This is why you build the Colossus and GLH, and play a Financial civ. Real difficult.

Who exactly determines what's a "cheese" in the first place? Are Cataphracts cheese? I mean, who made you king and crowned you as the determiner of "cheese?"

 

[Archbob]

Yes. This is why you build the Colossus and GLH, and play a Financial civ. Real difficult.

Who exactly determines what's a "cheese" in the first place? Are Cataphracts cheese? I mean, who made you king and crowned you as the determiner of "cheese?"

You know, when you draw random, you don't know what map your going to end up with so you may have not picked a financial civ. Also, you may not end up with rigged starting spots. I've had games where I've started on tundra. Those games are significantly harder then the ones posted here where you start with a totally awesome start location.

Sometimes on Diety, someone will beat you to GLH some of the time since the AI has a high production advantage. So how do you win if that happens? Island maps are really resource poor most of the time. Suppose you didn't pick HC or a financial or IND civ to grab the wonder and take advantage of financial.

If you draw tiny islands, sometimes you start on a really small island and its hard to expand fast and you really can't conquer anyone.

Diety is easier in BTS than on Vanilla though because AI bonuses aren't that big.

Re-drawing until you get a really awesome starting spot and then turning on options that make the game easier(like disabling tech trades) means basically you can't beat the game at that difficulty unless you rigg it in your favor.

Yes, I can win the game on deity if I play some of these maps that have been posted. But if I want to call myself a "Diety player", I have to beat the game with my Civ on random maps/starts without having to re-draw 10 times to get a rigged starting position.

If I play Epic or Marathon, I generally can turn the difficulty up a notch or two notches. If I play quick, I generally go down a level.

 

[MarigoldRan]

You know, when you draw random, you don't know what map your going to end up with so you may have not picked a financial civ. Also, you may not end up with rigged starting spots. I've had games where I've started on tundra. Those games are significantly harder then the ones posted here where you start with a totally awesome start location.

Sometimes on Diety, someone will beat you to GLH some of the time since the AI has a high production advantage. So how do you win if that happens? Island maps are really resource poor most of the time.

Island maps bore me.

What's the point of making it super-hard for yourself? A little bit of a challenge is fine, but what's with all these masochistic tendencies from you and others? Are you trying to prove that you'll be more of a man if you can beat super-hard maps and settings where you make it difficult for yourself? I don't understand. I don't think this will be a successful strategy because success in civ IV is probably not equivalent to greater manliness. In fact, I suspect the opposite is true.

Isn't the purpose of the game to have fun and to enjoy the settings that YOU want to play? You don't see me going to YOUR threads and flaming: "Standard/Normal is boring, and Ho Ho Ho I'm an arrogant bastard," which is basically what you and Obsolete is doing.

 

[The Oz-Man]

I don't think this will be a successful strategy because success in civ IV is probably not equivalent to greater manliness. In fact, I suspect the opposite is true.

Awesome.

"I have found a successful, winning strategy for a game in which success means being a total weenie!"

Thread comes full circle.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Awesome.

"I have found a successful, winning strategy for a game in which success means being a total weenie!"

Thread comes full circle.

By the way, I never implied I have a successful winning strategy. What I'm trying to argue is that a Str 8, 45 hammer unit is pretty damn good and that obsolete's dissing of praets is WRONG.

Based on your previous comment, I think you're a and your face is ugly, but that's a separate issue.

 

[Archbob]

Island maps bore me.

What's the point of making it super-hard for yourself? A little bit of a challenge is fine, but what's with all these masochistic tendencies from you and others? Are you trying to prove that you'll be more of a man if you can beat super-hard maps and settings where you make it difficult for yourself? I don't understand. I don't think this will be a successful strategy because success in civ IV is probably not equivalent to greater manliness. In fact, I suspect the opposite is true.

Isn't the purpose of the game to have fun and to enjoy the settings that YOU want to play? You don't see me going to YOUR threads and flaming: "Standard/Normal is boring, and Ho Ho Ho I'm an arrogant bastard," which is basically what you and Obsolete is doing.

Its not making the game super-hard. Its the default settings. I'm not saying trap yourself on a snow island). You can't really call yourself a "diety" or "immortal" player if you can only beat that difficulty with one specific setting(which is easier than the default game setting) and you have to re-draw 10 times to get a rigged start.


To truly call yourself a legit "immortal" or "diety" player you have to at least be able to beat that difficultly a decent % of the time with standard game settings. I've met few true Diety players.

If you can only beat the game with rigged start on settings that are easier than the default settings, you can't claim to be a good player. Thats like saying, "I can ace every test, if I get an additional 20% in bonus credit every time".

Prats are one of my favorite UU's , but seriously that strategy generally doesn't work well on diety and only works on very specific maps.

 

[MarigoldRan]

So when did I say I wanted to be a legit Deity or Immortal player, or whatever? And also, why is this important? Aren't you proving my point here?

My whole argument is that praets are pretty good. They're Str 8, and they cost 45 hammers, and they come early. A praet is just as good as a vulture, or a Numidian. I mean, what the hell? It's Str 8, and cheap, and it comes early. How many times do I have to repeat this?

Even if you use it entirely as a defensive unit, it's a GREAT defensive unit. It can fight pretty much anything on an even or better footing until much later in the medieval era, and you can use them with cannons too.

A praet is better than an axe. It's better than a spear. It's better than a longbow unless you're PRO. Anytime you want to build any of these units, and you probably should at some point in the game to protect yourself at the least, you can instead build a praet, WHICH IS BETTER THAN ALL OF THEM.

 

[Archbob]

According to your starting post you seems to be trying to prove that a Prat rush is a really good strategy on Diety, which its not.

Longbows makes Prat attacking cities less effective(especially if the AI builds knights as well) and Gunpowder with Muskets makes them totally ineffective for taking cities.

Everyone knows that Prats are a great UU, the +2 str is easy to figure out, but they aren't as great as you seem to want to claim.

I personally don't really even like Vultures, not in my top 10 for UU's.