Praets At Deity at Normal Speed

[Giant Wolfman]

To each his own. But you don't see me going to your threads and flaming, "Standard/Normal is boring. Ugh. Why are you playing it?"

You go into threads parading Huge/Marathon pretty often. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion and playing settings that you like, but don't get so defensive. As it relates to the forums, I feel like playing your settings is no different than me playing prince--we should be taking advice from others, not snapping and getting butthurt everytime someone says something negative.

When did I ever write this is a "super duper strategy?"

See Post #1


@topic Even given the slight discount in cost, I too prefer the HA rush because of the speed & the potential to withdraw (given flanking promotion).

 

[MyOtherName]

Disagree. 6 Praets hit 6 times. 8 HAs hit 8 times. I'd rather have 8 HAs than 6 Praets. And everything is depending on WHAT you are hitting.

This is a silly argument. 24 warriors hit 24 times, but I somehow suspect you're not going to say that you'd rather have 24 warriors than 8 Horse Archers because of it.

(of course, the argument you're arguing against is also silly, but that's no excuse)

 

[Lewarks]

This is a silly argument. 24 warriors hit 24 times, but I somehow suspect you're not going to say that you'd rather have 24 warriors than 8 Horse Archers because of it.

(of course, the argument you're arguing against is also silly, but that's no excuse)

I'm not talking about Warriors but HAs/Praets. Since you are rushing, you should be facing Archers/Axes/Spears. In this case I would rather have 8 HAs than 6 Praets. Both have a highier base strength, I'd take the stack with more units and with 2 move units so I can easily fork cities and pillage tiles.

But all of this is irrelevant. What the matter of this comparison since it depends on horse/iron ressouces, your neighboors, your start and simply the actual need of a rush...

 

[MyOtherName]

don't get so defensive. ... we should be taking advice from others, not snapping and getting <snip>hurt everytime someone says something negative.

I don't think this is entirely fair. He's being offered more than advice -- a few malicious posters are offering insults and ridicule, and most of the rest have wound up reinforcing it through sharing similar sentiments, through countering MarigoldRan's reactions to being insulted -- or even directly defending the malicious posters.

Yes, there is advice that he has been given that he should listen to, but it's flat out wrong to imply that his reactions are entirely unjustified.

 

[MyOtherName]

I'm not talking about Warriors but HAs/Praets.

Ignoring the reasons why an argument is bad doesn't suddenly make it good. My point is -- and you demonstrated it in your reply -- that sheer numbers really aren't the reason why you prefer 8 Horse Archers over 6 Praetorians.

 

[Bebekija]

I think your seriously underestimating 2 movement speed units over 1.

I used to underestimate them as well, until I played a few MP games with some friends and realized how hard it is to defend against 2-movement units. It is much harder than defending against a single 1-movement SoD, even twice bigger

You never get to see that in single player, because the AI usually stack their horses with other units and ruin their tactical advantage.

 

[Keilah]

lol forums on the interwebz -_-

This thread should probably just be locked.

BTW, I'm playing the praet map #2 (the one with the sweet start, with pigs/2corn/gold in the BFC) and while I'm sure many possible strats would work, the praets are pwning face.

Spoiler :

I was planning to kill the next-door khmer but joao built the pyramids, shrined a religion, and built 10 cities, so I took him out instead. Praets were very nice for taking out barb cities before the AIs got them, and fast IW allowed me to clear some early gems.

Praets are nice at defending the odd time that the AI decides to suicide some units, praets have no serious anti-units, and it's nice to have a super-simple stack: all praets, all with +str promos.

 

[ahcos]

Consider: 6 praets hit just as hard as 8 HAs. But they're significantly cheaper, and doesn't require stables.

Yes, they theoretical hit as hard, when attacking cities even harder because of CR.

BUT!

You can alter your target with HAs very quick. The problem @ Deity is that the AI will stack tons of troops in certain cities. With HAs you can chose to attack other cities first and weaken the AI that way. It'll drag out some of the stacked troops from the first city, and you can smash them in the open field. This again is ALOT easier with HAs as with them you have 2 moves to attack their stack before the stack attacks YOU with mass cats or something like that... Collateral damage is, like in all wars, the thing that usually breaks your neck. With HAs, you can dodge this alot easier, you can flank the crap out of cats, you can switch targets, alter your strategy...

And that's why HAs are better, usually. You just don't have the time to run to another city with 1-move Praets like on Marathon on Normal Speed... yes, on rare occasions you can, but usually that 2nd movementpoint for HAs is huge.

Again, this doesn't make Praets per se "bad", they're a pretty strong unit. BUT for those kind of single-unit-rushes they are inferior in my eyes. Let's also not forget that you'll more likely face shock axes than you'll see formation spears that early on. Shock axes win vs. praets...

Edit: this is based on my experiences, ofc, as in: i've been alot more succesful with HAs than with Praets.

 

[MarigoldRan]

The malicious posters like Nick Carpathia are fine, as long as it's OPENLY malicious.

But with other people like Obsolete they're UNINTENTIONALLY malicious. And that's what really gets me angry.

If you're going to troll, then you should, you know, troll. But if you're trying to prove a point other than "the other guy is an idiot," then you should try to prove that point.

Of the posters who have spent all this time debating, how many have actually played the maps that Grashopa and I posted?

 

[MarigoldRan]

I used to underestimate them as well, until I played a few MP games with some friends and realized how hard it is to defend against 2-movement units. It is much harder than defending against a single 1-movement SoD, even twice bigger

You never get to see that in single player, because the AI usually stack their horses with other units and ruin their tactical advantage.

2-move units are fast but fragile. 1-move units are slow but sturdy.

I've rushed with HAs too, you know. The only HA I consistently like to rush with is the Numidian.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

But with other people like Obsolete they're UNINTENTIONALLY malicious.

Unintentionally? Your reading comprehension broken, cher?

 

[MarigoldRan]

You go into threads parading Huge/Marathon pretty often. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion and playing settings that you like, but don't get so defensive. As it relates to the forums, I feel like playing your settings is no different than me playing prince--we should be taking advice from others, not snapping and getting butthurt everytime someone says something negative.



See Post #1


@topic Even given the slight discount in cost, I too prefer the HA rush because of the speed & the potential to withdraw (given flanking promotion).

I believe I wrote in post #1, this:

However, at Standard Deity there are certain sacrifices with using them:

1. You can forget about getting liberalism.
2. You will fall badly behind in tech.
3. Feudalism, not Civil Service, becomes your tech of choice, for vassaling targets and the +2 experience bonus.
4. Unlike Marathon/Huge, you cannot pick your targets as easily. If you're on a Peninsula and Ragnar is your only close neighbor, then Ragnar it will be.

Did you somehow miss this? I spent 6 lines on it pointing out the potential weaknesses in this strategy. I thought it was pretty obvious.

 

[Manco Capac]

how many have actually played the maps that Grashopa and I posted?

I tried the first praets save (the least HoF-type start) and I failed...at least I didn't have the feel to continue in the spirit of a pure praet rush.
I started well, but when starting to rush at ~1000 BC and failing to capture first city (lightly defended ) losing two praets successively at 73%...and everyone having stacks of axemen, I lost my spirit.

Spoiler :

Gunning for IW without minimum commerce is a serious no-no. Better putting beakers on things that will develop the economy. I would like to retry, but it is against my values to retry a map I have knowledge of it.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Unintentionally? Your reading comprehension broken, cher?

There's a way to troll, and there's a way not to troll.

One of the ways NOT to troll is to sound really arrogant, because it makes you look bad.

If you're going to troll, you should make it obvious that you're trolling. Like Nick. With Obsolete, it sounds more like he's being an ass.

EDIT: There IS a difference between being a troll and being an ass. A troll tries to make other people look bad. An ass makes himself look bad.

 

[MarigoldRan]

I tried the first praets save (the least HoF-type start) and I failed...at least I didn't have the feel to continue in the spirit of a pure praet rush.
I started well, but when starting to rush at ~1000 BC and failing to capture first city (lightly defended ) losing two praets successively at 73%...and everyone having stacks of axemen, I lost my spirit.

Spoiler :

Gunning for IW without minimum commerce is a serious no-no. Better putting beakers on things that will develop the economy. I would like to retry, but it is against my values to retry a map I have knowledge of it.

Yes. I was thinking about this. Aesthetics -> trade for IW is probably the way to go.

How many praets did you send at your first city?

 

[Manco Capac]

Yes. I was thinking about this.

How many praets did you send at your first city?

Spoiler :

I guess not enough. But losing the two praets successively is a lowish ~9 % and it did happened(2 praets and an axeman onto one axeman (not promoted) and an archer in a side flatland city). I wanted to cut off iron supply from an AI asap. My choking went wrong with that AI, so I had to sue for peace or cease fire whatever. If I had captured the city, the said AI would be stuck with archers, then I could've have choked even more (really easy given the map with strong soldiers), taking care meanwhile of other AI's. But that's life. I'm not a deity player, sooo.

Yes. I was thinking about this. Aesthetics -> trade for IW is probably the way to go.

IW is so useless when selfteched (on deity)...but getting from trading, that's another story.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Unintentionally? Your reading comprehension broken, cher?

You know Voice, you're totally right. "Unintentional" was the wrong word.

I apologize. Let me re-phrase it so that it better suits your vocabulary taste:

1. Trolling is ok.
2. Trolling badly is not.
3. Trolling badly because other people are doing it is most definitely not ok.

And:

4. Don't jump in a fight that's not yours, unless you're prepared.

 

[Mylene]

It sometimes works, but more often not
With HAs it's easier to stop a rush after taking a few cities, when realizing you won't go very far.

Cos it is a fast rush, you will be able to figure out the situation pretty quick.
Praets on the other hand, when walking towards the bigger cities you won't see what is going on for some time.
As you arrive, you might see lots of tough defenders and have to either suicide or give up.
With HAs you can swing around and take another city, then make peace. Senty is also very usefu for this (i would add a chariot to my Praets stack).

Again, it can work with weak neighbours. But it doesn't mean the unit is OPed or the best, what about Keshiks?
They are just as good, when i look at it with an open mind towards both strats.

 

[Manco Capac]

4. Don't jump in a fight that's not yours, unless you're prepared.

Please, MarigoldRan. VoiceofReason is a witty thinker.

And please calm down. You should be a bit more stoic.
Myself, if I wasn't, I would be all the time agressive.

Unintentionally? Your reading comprehension broken, cher?

cher? Is that a french word? Merriam-webster gives me nothing as result.

 

[JustBen]

Which makes one wonder: if you can rush with WCs, and HAs, and Immortals, and Quechuas, why can't you rush with the praet and just as effectively?

The timing attack is a fundamental of strategy games. The idea is that you act while you have a tech advantage and your opponent doesn't. There are good timing attacks and bad timing attacks. It depends on how easy it is to gain the tech advantage, and how much you have to damage your economy to exploit the tech. To dismiss all timing attacks as equal because they succeed sometimes is to trivialize a strategically deep game.

The Cuirassier rush is good because it doesn't delay Education tech or infra and does exploit the prevalence of Longbows. A Maceman rush is bad because it does delay Education and gets exploited by the prevalence of Longbows. An IW rush is closer to the latter, though less bad. A HA rush is closer to the former, though less good. Economy and technology matter more than the quality of the unit. This is one of many reasons that UUs are overblown -- they almost never affect the economic side of the timing attack equation.

A praet is a STR 8 UNIT THAT COMES EARLY AND IS REALLY CHEAP. You can get Iron, and IW pretty easily, either by self-teching or by trades. Which part of this paragraph do people not agree with?

It's either not cheap or it doesn't come early. Rushing IW has real, negative effects on your economy. Delay the rush and your timing window closes. That's the definition of what makes a rush weak. It doesn't have to be a failed rush to be a weak strat.