Praets At Deity at Normal Speed

[Archbob]

Praets are a really good UU, but you need IW and iron to pull it off, doesn't always happen. Anyways, one movements unit on normal speed take so long to pull off and it stops working when the AI gets Longbowman.

You can however, do well with pillaging.

 

[MarigoldRan]

It works. Though like HAs, you need a good map to keep up research.

The key is to skip Construction until AFTER you've killed someone and gotten a GG, at which point CR II or Accuracy pults. Praets are so efficient that pure numbers of them will win pre-Feudalism and catapults will only slow you down. Heck, I'm wondering if catapults are worth it post-Feudalism too.

The tech order is similar to HAs, except you get Iron Working instead. Then spam praets. The safer option is Aesthetics, and trade for IW. In which case, it's standard play anyways, and you'll be ok even if you don't find Iron in your borders.

And PRO archers are pathetic against praets. I don't consider them as worth anything defensively for the AI. PRO LBs though are a different matter. But before that, it's the axes that pose a threat.

In other words:

1. Skip Construction and Math.
2. The praet push timing is similar to HAs, though you can begin a little later thanks to the fact they're so damn efficient.
3. Don't get Catapults until you can promote them to CR II or Accuracy.
4. Get enough praets to split stacks and hit two cities at once.
5. This is tentative, but I wonder if I can take out LBs with just pure praets and no siege. Siege is so expensive and suicide pults will die anyways. You can get 10 praets for 6 catapults.

I'm going to try this on other maps too. I'm going to post the save and I'd like someone else to use HAs on this map and compare.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Also, it's not worth it to protect your praets against shock axes. Consider: a praet costs almost as much a shock axe, and with combat 1, is at a higher strength even against other axes.

As I said, this is a powerful and very cheap unit.

The safest route, as I said above, is to tech normally towards Aesthetics, and trade for IW. If there's praets, you can consider a praet push. It's like HAs, but comes a little later, but with a more efficient and more powerful, albeit slower, unit.

Skip Catapults until after you can get two-promoted pults. They're a trap.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

I'm concerned that you think you've proven something, it's as if Praetorians are this new unit you've discovered for us.

That image shows evidence of conquest, but is that a winning position? I assume you will proceed with the invasion of neighboring AI(s)?

 

[krikav]

I'm concerned that you think you've proven something, it's as if Praetorians are this new unit you've discovered for us.

This is why I am annoyed at the "gold grows on trees" thread.

 

[Horgh666]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYxrxkK5DQA

A Praetorian rush vid by AZ on Deity normal speed with a nice start.

 

[obsolete]

Heck, I'm wondering if catapults are worth it post-Feudalism too.

Ugh....

4. Get enough praets to split stacks and hit two cities at once.

Mmmm... so we are splitting forces now...

2. The praet push timing is similar to HAs, though you can begin a little later thanks to the fact they're so damn efficient.

Don't you mean, because they are NOT as efficient, you have to wait longer to get more numbers?

Did you know with a single MOUNTED stack, you can target 2 or more cities at once, forcing the AI to bail the ones you always want to capture. With a 1-movement unit this is IMPOSSIBLE due to city placement restrictions.

 

[Seraiel]

Damn, are you all ing negative, I'm so glad that at least I'm having fun :>

 

[cbucks]

I dont understand skipping math. If you have a philo leader (this strategy even works with a non-philo leader), you tech writing before horseback riding, run 2 scientists, bulb math, then chop/whip out ha like mad. It has the added bonus of boosting research as well.

 

[Bebekija]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYxrxkK5DQA

A Praetorian rush vid by AZ on Deity normal speed with a nice start.

Spoiler :

...where AZ crashes his economy because of the rush and finally gets beaten up by his neighbours....


He actually says it himself at the very end (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMtlQHnXpII, 1h22min) :
"That was the praetorian rush, the one that you should never do [on Deity anyway] for exactly this reason. [...] As you can see it didn't work very well : I broke my economy and made myself very vulnerable for early game DOWs. [...] That's why those people who'd seem to think that praetorians are all that great don't really know what they're talking about"

 

[krikav]

Spoiler :

...where AZ crashes his economy because of the rush and finally gets beaten up by his neighbours....


He actually says it himself at the very end (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMtlQHnXpII, 1h22min) :
"That was the praetorian rush, the one that you should never do [on Deity anyway] for exactly this reason. [...] As you can see it didn't work very well : I broke my economy and made myself very vulnerable for early game DOWs. [...] That's why those people who'd seem to think that praetorians are all that great don't really know what they're talking about"

Spooooiler!!

 

[Mylene]

And @AZ is right, like so often
Don't do it on normal speed Deity, unless you want to learn a lesson ~~
We failed so you don't have to...!

edit: i also don't think the "very favorable starts" helps the Praets case.
If i have a great start, why rush with a Jumbo type of unit on it's own in the first place?

 

[Dirk1302]

On those settings, it doesn't work well and the span life is quite short 1-2 rivals killed at max.

Although some does not want a silly HoF to back an assertion up, there was a old gauntlet called G-Major 90 (deity, normal speed) which tested such situations and only one player succeeded with Julius. But how many amongst others failed at the same time. I tried and I failed. So I slightly know what I am talking about. Praets and normal deity doesn't mesh well unless the stars are aligned...and I don't need to be a deity player to feel when a failing strat. is a failing one.

I tried this one yesterday, played very fast and sloppy but still had 8 cities 600 BC on my way to more as i was rolling over Joao.But this game is not representable at all because it's impossible to crash your economy with 3 mines in your capital's BFC. Every tactic would have worked here and as i actually had construction 1160 BC you could call it a cat rush as well. HOF is useless for trying out tactics as usual.

I may try that map Marigold tried when i have more time (and that may be a while...).
Having read the comments sofar i'm actually not sure how good praets are on deity. I still don't think they're as bad as many claim here. However in that HOF game i clearly came to a standstill against my first target (some indian leader) as 7 praets against a 5 archer city with 60% culture on a hill is not doable.

This left me a useless culturally pressed indian city and it cost me a lot of time to pull back back taking another indian city and regroup for the subsequent war against Joao where i also used cats. More than with a HA attack i think scouting Ais in advance is very important here, you can see which cities are on hills and probably too hard to swallow in advance. With that information at hand you can choose best victim then.

 

[Bebekija]

Spooooiler!!

Oops sorry about that !

Spoiler tags added!

 

[Mikehendi]

Spooooiler!!

Now if only Krikav would place spoiler tags around the text he quoted from your spoiler...

 

[Archredbeard]

2. You will fall badly behind in tech.

I have to say, after all the debate on this post, Marigold himself points out in the opening comments in this thread, why Praets rushing dont work on Deity

I totally missed that in the first wiew

At least i hope he gets the point

 

[civvver]

I'm not quite sure why you say praetorian are a good medieval unit. Maces and crossbows tear them to shreads. On the offensive they can't take down longbows without siege. They're good for one thing, sword rushing archers prior to construction.

 

[shakabrade]

My experience with Praets tells me that they get raped by shock axes.
Also, deity AIs get longbows very early.

5. This is tentative, but I wonder if I can take out LBs with just pure praets and no siege. Siege is so expensive and suicide pults will die anyways. You can get 10 praets for 6 catapults.

One hill city LB can theoretically kill all your praets because of his first strike. Still, killing one LB can be more cost effective without suiciding catapult. However, almost always you have to kill 3+ LBs and without suiciding catas, results can vary too much. And you don't want that, cause you can't plan with that. You can have no losses at all (almost impossible) or, more likely, you'll end up without your stack.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but your odds are just too low to even try.
I also like better suiciding catas than my precious CR3-4 soon to be rifles.
You also need less units to conquer if you suicide catas, and that means less unit maintenance.
True story.

 

[Grashopa]

We're going to put the Praets to the deity challenge. I'll start a series called Deity Praet flipping a coin for Augustus or Julius with Pangaea in order to weight the challenge in favor of the Praets. Lets find out how many people go IW and of those who do what is the best strategy.

 

[Kid R]

Damn, are you all ing negative, I'm so glad that at least I'm having fun :>

Hear hear! Swordsman is an honourable unit with certain uses. Praetorian is a significant upgrade on swordsman