pre-SKNES

[Grandkhan]

Goddammit, Loki!

 

[Terrance888]

Spoiler :

OOC: Ok... I establish Jizya and the only negative response happens. Everyone establishes Jizya or this Kammerat and its fine, but I do it and its bombs on me?

On the Holy Smite thing, its like a Seal Team. Imagine the raid on OBL, except without modern tech. They go in, nuetralize the target, destroy all evidence, get out. Each time, they have most of their force prepared to stop those they see. All Catholics are already warned to "not look upon the destruction of Sodom like the Wife of Lot", leaving one third of the population. Say, the average town has 1000 people in 200 houses? That means there are about 80 houses to watch, being generous, with only 4 of them targeted for destruction. With 1000 troops in our Legion, we can have 10 people watch each non-targeted Forn Sithr house, and 50 people for the assault itself, EACH HOUSEHOLD. Don't forget, this is after Curfew. In Medieval times, it is AGAINST THE LAW to be out after curfew anyways; how could one be hunting?

If they somehow avoided death, they could not see what actually happened because of the watching Legionaries. If they were watching, they were breaking the law THEREFORE not only will the normal city guard catch and try them, but they will also be shunned for being a lawbreaking and thus condemning 10 men to his fate. Oh, in Medieval society in a town every 10 men are organized as a Tithe. During war, one from each tithe is raised as a Levie. In Medieval Law, when one of the tithe breaks a law, the other members of the tithe will suffer the same if they do not help bring that man to justice. If they were seeing the Fire, they would be breaking so many traditions and customs that it won't be funny.

Now, for the countryside. This is even simpler. They simply cordon the area around the target and watch all neighbors within that area. There are Curfew laws in the countryside as well , mostly to prevent poaching. If someone, say, is going to the outhouse, sees them, and makes a run for it... no way to make it out, at all. If he hides, the Cordon will eventually find it in their methodical march. If he cries out, more the fun. The House Watchers will prevent anyone inside the farmhouses from looking outside, flaming arrows will ensure the destruction. If all goes well, they will assault the house as normal.

Now, say against ALL this someone survived AND has witness this directly. This person would have violated at least 2 laws; Curfew and Call out, or automatic offering of aid against criminals, as the Forn Sithr will be called to witnesses. The Social Stigma will be great in any case, for abandoning either of these laws would prove someone to be sulky, untrustworthy, unhonorable and thus undeserving of interest.

And say that against ALL evidence and ALL social stigma, one person listens... now others will think that person a fool to believe something with no evidence, no call out, nothing except the word of a supposed liar. Not to mention that the most incendiary of the Forn Sithr are slowly being picked off every generation, leaving calm, composed, tolerant survivors who don't want to hear anything which will make them stand out, and thus the next target.

Now, I will officially ask SouthernKing about the effectiveness of God's Smite.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

It's just remarkeably Unhistorical!

 

[Terrance888]

Remarkably unhistorical? In THIS NES???

Firstly, I will take the liberty to

Secondly, Pogroms. What does this prove? This proves that violence against minorities does occur, has occurred and WILL occur within this NES. As you look further, there are evidence of organized Pogroms by states to shift blame and to reduce minority pressures.

Thirdly, Legionary crushed Druidism. Basically, they target the most visible and incendiary sites, while offering much for its worshipers to abandon Druidism; Almost exactly what I am doing! As Visigothic Legionaries are trained based on legionary procedures preserved in Aquitaine, and such acts are in their procedures, they already are trained to enact such purges.

Fourthly, they are rebels. As we only target the most loud, boorish, cursing and hellraising Forn Sithr, one way it is justified as putting down a Forn Sithr rebellion led by such people. Quiet, head lowered Forn Sithr were spared to face the Jizya tax, further making them question "Well, what IS the difference?".


Now, if you wish to re-discuss the effectiveness, look at the previous post. For the three reasons that religious violence has occured before and after this time period, often as scapegoats. For the reason that the Visigothic Legionaries are trained with Roman procedures, which include directions for the purpose of crushing Druids and which are easily adopted for use against Forn Sithr, and the reason that these acts are often seen as simply the crushing of an unlawful rebellion, I see no reason how this is unhistorical, merely that I brought historical elements together in a new way.

If you want to play something historical, download a history ebook, Control-F a nation's name, and replace with your own. Read and enjoy.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

I'm juts saying, Terrence, that your argument that no word of it would get out is wrong. Something like that wouldn't be able to be kept hidden now, even with all we have now.

 

[Terrance888]

Of course word of it would get it, like word of you crushing Catholics in Juteland. But unlike you, I wrote a story, so I get the backlash, while your carefully background mass pogrom goes mostly unnoticed.

EDIT: Good play.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Pogroms? I just STRONGLY suggested that they leave . However, that point is moot, as Catholics are Kammerat, and therefore protected under the Jutlaw.

 

[Terrance888]

And I just STRONGLY suggested the more rebellious Forn Sithr to stop being rebellious. By being dead.

Also:

Spoiler :

Jutland would like to remind all that the Might of the Allfather will always melt through the lies of Lokki, and his avatar the White Christ and The Mahomet. However, the realities of the World force us to work with them until such time as they no longer exist. As such, they Are afforded the Status of Kammerat. This awards them a special Status, not afforded to other religions. Under this system, (which is similar to the OTL Dhimmi System of Islam.) Kammerat people are guaranteed their personal safety and security of property, in return for paying tribute and acknowledging Forn Sidr rule. Although Kammerat are allowed to perform their religious rituals, they were obliged to do so in a manner not conspicuous to Forn Sidr. Although Kammerat are allowed to perform their religious rituals, they were obliged to do so in a manner not conspicuous to Forn Sidr. isplay of Non Forn-Sidr religious symbols, such as crosses or icons, is prohibited on clothing (unless mandated as part of religious ceremony). Additionally, Kammerat people are forbidden from proselytizing to Forn Sidr people (But other religions are free game.) Finally, A Forn Sidr member of a Family will inherit the property of the deceased over those of other faiths.

Loopholes!
1) Not afforded to other religions=not Forn Sithr itself, amirite?

Kammerat people are guaranteed their personal safety and security of property, in return for paying tribute and acknowledging Forn Sidr rule.

1) What if they are too poor to pay tribute? What if they don't have the right money to pay tribute?
2) How are their personal safety guaranteed? By the Court? Will they have body guards to prevent angry Forn Sithr mobs?
3) Security of property; what about the Baron who joins under Kammarat, and owns thousands upon thousands of acres of land? What about common land, which all the peasants of a village DEPEND upon for the communal survival of winter, but technically is NOT personal property?
4) Would they still have these guaranteed if they pay tribute and acknowledge Forn Sithr rule, but also acknowledge a rebel group which they participate in; they, they did acknowledge you. Recognizing a threat is the first stop to combating it.

Although Kammerat are allowed to perform their religious rituals, they were obliged to do so in a manner not conspicuous to Forn Sidr.

1) What about Festivals of the Saints? Churchbell tolling? Muslims calling for prayer? These popular traditions require naturally conspicuous things.
2) Now, would a congregation count as conspicuous? A Mass movement of people to a public house, where the Priest all the way from Rome would rant and rave as necessary from an old copy of the bible. What if the sound goes out to the streets?

Display of Non Forn-Sidr religious symbols, such as crosses or icons, is prohibited on clothing (unless mandated as part of religious ceremony).

1) How would you define the difference between ceremony and tradition? What if the Pope says that all must place a cross provided by a church on their neck in a ceremony, which doesn't end until the next weekend mass? Or the end of Lent, being a long-term ceremony. What then?
2) What if it isn't on clothing? How about necklaces? Headbands? Tatoos?

Additionally, Kammerat people are forbidden from proselytizing to Forn Sidr people (But other religions are free game.)

1) Rather hard to enforce, as simply talking about your joyous experiences and satisfaction with your life, without even mentioning religion, can make people curious.

Finally, A Forn Sidr member of a Family will inherit the property of the deceased over those of other faiths.

1) And there comes fueds. The second born converts the day before Dad dies to cokblock the elder. A baby of a distant branch of the family is converted, giving it all the rights of property which belongs to the eighteenth cousin seventytwo times removed. I would guess the Elder would try to kill Forn Sithr members of the family to stop this=AND they would have their personaly safety guaranteed because they paid tribute and acknowledged Forn Sithr rule, while the Brother, of another religion AKA forn Sithr itself, does not get said protection.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

This system is heavily based on the Dhimmi System of Islam.

Loopholes!
1) Not afforded to other religions=not Forn Sithr itself, amirite?

By Other religions, I mean such things as, Say, Druidism, or Zoroastrianism. Followers of Forn Sidr are full blown citizens of Jutish (and other Forn Sidr Lands.) Catholics and Muslims are second class citizens.

1) What if they are too poor to pay tribute? What if they don't have the right money to pay tribute?

They will pay how they can. If they cannot pay anything, then, they may give thier first born to the Court or the Temple Complex, and consider their debt paid. If they refuse, then their protected status is removed.

2) How are their personal safety guaranteed? By the Court? Will they have body guards to prevent angry Forn Sithr mobs?

By the Court. How is any many protected if not by the rule of law.

3) Security of property; what about the Baron who joins under Kammarat, and owns thousands upon thousands of acres of land? What about common land, which all the peasants of a village DEPEND upon for the communal survival of winter, but technically is NOT personal property?

The institutions do not change. Ownership of land is not affected, only inheritance.

4) Would they still have these guaranteed if they pay tribute and acknowledge Forn Sithr rule, but also acknowledge a rebel group which they participate in; they, they did acknowledge you. Recognizing a threat is the first stop to combating it.

They would still have protection as followers of Kammerat people. However, they may still be pursued under the law for other transgressions.

1) What about Festivals of the Saints? Churchbell tolling? Muslims calling for prayer? These popular traditions require naturally conspicuous things.

And are abolished. Your Faith should NOT require that kind of publicity to remind your people to be faithful. If they are necessary, then your faith will only fade away.

2) Now, would a congregation count as conspicuous? A Mass movement of people to a public house, where the Priest all the way from Rome would rant and rave as necessary from an old copy of the bible. What if the sound goes out to the streets?

A congregation would not count as conspicuous, so long as it is indoors.

1) How would you define the difference between ceremony and tradition? What if the Pope says that all must place a cross provided by a church on their neck in a ceremony, which doesn't end until the next weekend mass? Or the end of Lent, being a long-term ceremony. What then?

If it is not traditional, then, forbidden. A proper faith has the weight of history and tradition behind it. A kippah, as traditional, is allowed, but, a new thing arbitrarily declared is not.

2) What if it isn't on clothing? How about necklaces? Headbands? Tatoos?

One on's person.

1) Rather hard to enforce, as simply talking about your joyous experiences and satisfaction with your life, without even mentioning religion, can make people curious.

Then it is up to the Persons involved to determine whether any law is being broken.

1) And there comes fueds. The second born converts the day before Dad dies to cokblock the elder. A baby of a distant branch of the family is converted, giving it all the rights of property which belongs to the eighteenth cousin seventytwo times removed. I would guess the Elder would try to kill Forn Sithr members of the family to stop this=AND they would have their personaly safety guaranteed because they paid tribute and acknowledged Forn Sithr rule, while the Brother, of another religion AKA forn Sithr itself, does not get said protection.[/SPOILER]

Yep. These are Family issues, not those of the Court.

 

[Terrance888]

Thanks.

 

[SouthernKing]

so here's what I was planning BT orders to look like:

Focus on 2 out of the following 5:
Culture: You will start off with a stronger cultural identity in part 2.
Economy: You will start off with a larger income in part 2.
Learning: You will start off more advanced in part 2.
Military: You will start off with a stronger military in part 2.
Piety: You will start off with a stronger religious identity in part 2.

The ones you choose over the BT will have a huge impact on the start of part 2.

Military Actions:
-Please list your planned military actions here. Consider that the turns are a century each and give you plenty of time to fight multiple wars.
-For each action, please list the target(s) and a general strategy of how you want them done.
-List the actions you are planning in the order you want them done – so for example if you order attacks on two countries, the first one on the list will be the one that will occur first in the timeline, and the second will occur the second.

Other Actions:
-Anything else specific that is not a military action should go here. This can really be anything that is not military – you can specifically order a trade expedition to China, or

A few other things to note:
-Please PM orders to me, not post in thread
-The third BT turn (1200-1300) will revolve around the Mongols, who will progress in a more or less historical path. Unless you know for a fact that you won’t be attacked (i.e. western Europe, most of Africa, New World) part of your orders for that turn should be how you plan on defending yourself from the onslaught of furry horsemen. (If you’re in Central Asia, you’re basically screwed.)
-The fourth BT turn (1300-1400) will revolve around the Black Death. Not a whole lot you can do with this one (although you can use it to your advantage – I’m not telling you how) but be warned.
-Please, nothing that will set the Colombian Exchange off early. That’s going to be a large part of colonization in Part 2, so any contact, if someone is able to pull it off at all, with the New World will be limited and nothing beyond what the Vikings did at Vinland OTL.
-Countries can (and will) decline and decay during the BT, this depends on player actions. In particular I want to see these continent-spanning religion-based alliances get broken up, and bewarned, the NPCs will act towards that.

 

[Terrance888]

In particular I want to see these continent-spanning religion-based alliances get broken up, and bewarned, the NPCs will act towards that.

Good.

 

[GamezRule]

I would like to point out that, within the time frame at hand, Muslims and Christians probably shouldn't work together very often. That said, we definitely need more wars within religious factions.

 

[TheLizardKing]

Looking forward to it. I'll maintain the Zengid's, so long as they are allowed to exist.

 

[Grandkhan]

Yeah, the HRE and the Dominion of Midgard aren't really built to last. I'd imagine they'd go through a long decay like the OTL HRE did, but I'd like to see it go differently depending on player actions.

I like that system though SK.

 

[Terrance888]

IMHO it (the HRE) is decaying already.

I'm not sure about private BT orders (unless you won't make a Military/Piety attack on Culture/Learning basically an instakill) because it can allow the players come up with how things might work during the BT process and change their orders depending on their neighbors, like IRL, instead of subbornly heading in 2 set directions. (are contingencies allowed? if they are will there be a PM limit? If not here comes 10+ pms/orderset )

 

[thomas.berubeg]

SK, you have my general plans, right? I'm leaving for the arctic in a few days.

 

[SouthernKing]

@MusicLord: That's pretty much what I'm trying to accomplish.

@Grandkhan: Yeah, an entity like the HRE or Dominion can't really last very long - as soon as the internal factions start infighting it's pretty much doomed.

@Terrance: I wasn't really sure about that - I decided private because of NPCs, but my mind is still not completely set. If people can convince me that public will work better, I can switch.
And it's not going to be an instakill. Think of focusing as more nudging than body-checking, if you will. Obviously there will still be military, and Culture/Learning can still do as many military actions (and more) as Military/piety. The focuses are more for determining SKNES Part 2 starting stats.

@thomas: yes, I do have yours.

 

[SouthernKing]

From the mod:

Seeing as we're nearing the end of the first IT, and that this Crusade that just started is likely going to take up multiple turns, I'm thinking of doing the following:
-Shortening turns to 10 years each and
-moving to the BT when the Crusade ends.

Also, a little preview of what part 2's stats look like right now:

Nation/Player
Capital: City
Government: Ruler
Stability: +3 to -3
Issues of Concern:
-Issue 1
-Issue 2
-Issue 3
Economy: Income/Banked
Religion: Majority (Minorties)
Culture: Majority (Minorities)
Army: Units
Navy: Ships
Tech: Army/Navy/Government/Economy/Cultural/Scientific
Projects: Project (Investment/Total Cost)

Colony Name: +Economic Value
-Garrison: Units and Ships
-Stability/Issue of Concern
-Majority Religion/Majority Culture

 

[SamSniped]

Sounds good to me