Pre-SysNES2: Beta-testing and Submission

Symphony D. · Feb 4, 2012

NIGHTSHADE AGGRESSOR FLEET

The Nightshade Aggressor Fleet (NAF) is a development of the Speedman Aggressor Fleet model. The NAF is designed for hit-and-run attacks on important enemy fleet concentrations and installations. Get in, kill everything you can, and get out. The NAF assumes DHe Fusion Cores, Microwave Lasers, and Salt Sinks are Refined (1000e, 400s), TL5, Advancer/Poor Safety, and a 600e limit.

Spoiler Ship List :

Code:

[b]NIGHSHADE AGGRESSOR FLEET (NAF)[/b]

[b][u]NAME				PRICE	#	COST[/b][/u]
[i]Sunrise[/i] class			203e	1	203e
[i]Mandrake[/i] class			180e	2	360e

[b]TOTAL						563/600e[/b]

[b]Other Costs:[/b] 204m / 351v / 0a / 0t / 134s

The Sunrise accelerates both Mandrakes up to IP Speed 6, while also engaging whatever looks to be the most important target with its third laser. From there, the Sunrise hangs back and does long-range fire against larger, more important ships, and also engages in missile defense. The Mandrakes are to shield the Sunrise, tear apart clouds of smaller enemies, and rake larger ships with their multiple independent lasers. If anything seems capable of knocking out the Sunrise, and is not killed by it somehow, the Mandrakes are to eliminate it as a priority.

All ships are fully capable of leaving at any time; as their mission profile is essentially a raid, their objectives are to kill high value targets (warships, carriers, supply ships, etc.) and leave before sustaining notable damage, rather than to kill absolutely everything.

---

Thoughts:

Sail calculation still seems wonky. For example, the Sunrise gets 102 mass in all five speed boost slots, so it can either push something really fast or not all, which makes not much sense. I don't think you need the firing ship's mass in the calculation at all, since beam power is more or less itself a direct reflection of mass because of component heft. Otherwise you get weird cutoffs like this. I'd say make it solely power based. Maybe every given mirror sail can only absorb so much energy...
Let's say you have a transport ship with things on it. If this transport ship has a mirror sail, and is accelerated to speed, and then undocks what it has onboard, do all those undocked ships retain the speed benefit, or does each of them also need a mirror sail? Conservation of momentum would strongly suggest the former (though the carried ship mass would count)... In which case a laser ship coupled with a carrier can do some interesting things, like disgorge nuclear-tipped and kinetic fighters at IP Speed 9+. (See post below.)
Shouldn't a Kinetic Lance's damage be a result of IP Speed, rather than Propulsion technology? (Or possibly both?)

Bug Reports:

Quantity of EW Broadcasters and Jammers seems to have no effect on decreasing EW Vulnerability even though column DE in CC suggests it should; column DE not tallied in calculations anywhere, apparently. Algorithmic Interlocks does, but only for the first iteration. UPDATE: trying it on a different ship, seems to take lots to make a slight difference.

Symphony D. · Feb 4, 2012

DATURA AGGRESSOR FLEET

The Datura Aggressor Fleet (DAF) is an experimental variant of the NAF model. Likewise designed for hit-and-run strikes, the DAF utilizes a different mode of harassment. (Namely, the DAF assumes that a laser-boosted carrier vehicle confers the speed benefit to things it carries.) Three of the designs utilized, the Blackbird K, Blackbird N, and Albatross, are assumed to be refined due to production in numbers, as are the DHe Fusion Core and Salt Sink components (864e, 340s). The DAF is TL5 and Advancer and Poor Safety again figure into all stats.

Spoiler Ship List :

Code:

[b]DATURA AGGRESSOR FLEET (DAF)[/b]

[b][u]NAME				PRICE	#	COST[/b][/u]
[i]Blackbird K[/i] SF (Ref.)		18e	2	36e
[i]Blackbird N[/i] SF (Ref.)		24e	4	96e
[i]Albatross[/i] CS (Ref.)		12e	2	24e
[i]Capsicum[/i] class CVE		229e	1	229e
[i]Sunrise[/i] class FF		203e	1	203e

[b]TOTAL						588/600e[/b]

[b]Other Costs:[/b] 249m / 283v / 0a / 4t / 210s

Code:

[b]CAPSICUM CLASS HANGAR LOADOUT[/b]

[b][u]NAME				SIZE	#	TOTAL[/b][/u]
[i]Blackbird K[/i] SF (Ref.)		21	2	42
[i]Blackbird N[/i] SF (Ref.)		22	4	88
[i]Albatross[/i] CS (Ref.)		31	2	62

[b]TOTAL						192/192 capacity[/b]

Notes:
- Each [i]Albatross[/i] carries 2 [i]Blackbird N[/i], 1 [i]Blackbird K[/i]
- Total mass of each [i]Albatross[/i] Strike Group is 84

The Sunrise and Capsicum enter the target area at distance. Capsicum launches both Albatross skiffs with attached Blackbirds, which are boosted by the Sunrise while engaging with its third laser. The Albatross/Blackbird Strike Groups are accelerated to IP 6. At this point, Blackbirds detach and engage thrusters, achieving IP 9 for K models and IP 8 for N models, and conduct high-speed attack runs, using speed and agility to survive while Sunrise engages in long-range harassment on large ships and guards Capsicum, which coordinates Fleet Intelligence.

The Albatross are unmanned/expendable and can either return to the Capsicum, be used as distractions, or be discarded to permit combat landings of Blackbirds for rapid egress from the battlespace. Like the NAF, the DAF is designed primarily for raids to cripple enemy forces; it is generally preferable the Blackbirds be retrieved (as they can easily outrun enemy forces) before jumping away, unless the Sunrise or Capsicum are under extreme threat.

Symphony D. · Feb 4, 2012

KON-TIKI ATTACK FLEET

The Kon-Tiki Attack Fleet (KAF) is an exercise in constructing a modular, low-tech interstellar attack fleet of expendable and relatively cheap ships. KAF does not pack a particularly strong punch but does carry weight of numbers, speed, and some degree of survivability, and is designed to be capable of being reproduced several times. Accordingly, none of the components are refined, but every design has been (597e, 150s). The KAF is TL3 and Advancer and Poor Safety again figure into all stats.

Spoiler Ship List :

Code:

[b]KON-TIKI ATTACK FLEET (KAF)[/b]

[b][u]NAME				PRICE	#	COST[/b][/u]
[i]Nucleolus[/i] class			41e	1	41e
[i]Mitochondrion[/i] class		32e	2	64e
[i]Ribosome[/i] class			29e	1	29e
[i]Lysosome[/i] E AV			19e	6	114e
[i]Lysosome[/i] K AV			19e	9	171e
[i]Lysosome[/i] N AV			24e	4	96e
[i]Lysosome[/i] J AV			28e	3	84e

[b]TOTAL						599/600e[/b]

[b]Other Costs:[/b] 782m / 89v / 0a / 0t / 187s

All ships emerge at least at an interplanetary distance from the attack target, preferably deeper into the stellar gravity well to make reaching them more difficult. The Nucleolus, two Mitochondrions, and Ribosomes remain at this position and dispatch the Lysosomes to attack, all of which are boosted by the Mitochondrion ships to reasonable velocities (mostly IP 6). For the purposes of direct combat, only the Lysosomes engage.

Generally the Lysosomes are to engage and cripple/destroy high-value targets; they cannot stand up in a fight and are basically to be used against more expensive/critical ships and facilities than themselves. The J model, in particular, is likely to suffer a high attrition rate. Once such objectives are achieved, the Lysosomes either retreat to repair with the Ribosome, in preparation for another attack, or the fleet can jump out-system.

If odds are overwhelmingly against an engagement, the entire fleet can leave at any time.

Thlayli · Feb 4, 2012

I think your cargo ship needs external pods, not hangars, Symph.

Symphony D. · Feb 4, 2012

Pretty sure you totally misidentified what it was being used for.

Alternately: Yo dawg I herd you like carriers, so I put a carrier in your carrier so you can carry while you carry.

Thlayli · Feb 4, 2012

Oh.

I guess that's viable. Usually when I see 'cargo ship' I think something else.

Kal'thzar · Feb 4, 2012

I'll model the DAF anyway. Dis can rule on it. Still the ideas interesting, I'm sure arguments can be made why not to include it (orbital combat, Simplicity etc). E/S/blueprint cost is an argument in its favour though.

On that note, I've been modeling the long range weapons as being able to power as many units as they want AND fire at the enemy. Dis should rule on that too...

On that note, do plasma sails ALWAYS get the bonus from mag catapults? or just at the start? Descriptions a bit vague.

Symphony D. · Feb 4, 2012

General Fleet Theory design chat!

I'm starting to think that a few, specialized, High-Quality ships is probably the best overall bet. They maintain an efficiency edge over Good Enoughs in terms of performance, and they beat Swarms hands down for resource input, which are often horrendously expensive in m or v or both.

Swarms seem appropriate for low tech (TL3) due to harsh size/mass/component restrictions, but I'd wager they start to lose out at TL5 and beyond as more impressive ships become available. Something like the Mandrake, for example, fielded in larger numbers (say 4) starts to be able to clear an alarmingly large number of even mid-tier ships in just a few turns. The transition from Swarm to High-Quality is jarring and difficult to reconcile, and so despite the relative combat ineffectiveness of Good Enough ships, they might be more practicable than raw combat data suggests.

Fielding a useful Swarm during the TL3-TL4 period, considering the high resource cost, also seems prohibitively expensive. I think their efficacy is somewhat illusory because of this. You think that because each platform is cheap in e and easy to Refine, that the loss of each one is inconsequential, but lots of inconsequential losses translate to lots of lost resources. As a result I propose that in the future, a 600m/600v cap be put in place for simulated fleets as well as existing limits.

Looking forward, I think TL6 is when truly effective standalone warships will come into their own, and the 150-200 weight class will be the "minimum" warship standard going toward the antimatter era, at which 75-150 weight class ships will pack enough punch to be useful in remote patrol and policing duties, or for harassment. Exact damage totals are difficult considering we can't look at appropriate weapon components but I imagine a 75-150 weight class ship ("Frigate") easily outputting over 1000 EM damage.

Kal'thzar · Feb 4, 2012

My Ideas are going to wait until I game out the next phase. I certainly agree that with laser ships you want the biggest ship possible => most power => biggest guns.

Disenfrancised · Feb 5, 2012

The Sail cut off does seem a bit arbitary, but if a ship is pushing something that's much heavier than itself it will mean the 'pusher' ship will actually be accelerating backwards much faster than the pushed ship is going forward - which is a to stretch the combat system to meet.

On the pushed carrier idea, its innovative indeed, but I'm going to saying get on/off a carrier will take a full turn action (unless you have the carrier explosively deconstruct to get out of it) and the ship can't use its weapons till its out. Also once it's off it won't have the IP bonus, and the fast ships its closed with can attempt to peg it. Having a super high speed won't mean much if the foe can just move out the way - IP is about being to change your vector as well. This is also the main reason why lances run off propulsion (the second being that boosting IP is hard to do via propulsion alone, and I want teching propulsion to be a viable option).

A microwave beamer or mag catapult can power as many sails as it likes, since the energy output/payload profile is very different from when its in weapons mode, but can't fire on the enemy with its beamer/catapult the same turn it's doing that (since its powerplant will be set to 'push' rather than 'kill').

Particle sails get the benefit from the mag catapult all throughout the battle Kal.

On the resource question - it will be possible to amass truly huge amounts of m and v if you prioritize it, but certainly not every culture will be 'resource-rich'. Since those cultures will probably be a bit deficient in e and s swarms will make sense for them. Buying huge m and v stockpiles to make your stuff will also be possible as long as you retain some friends/middlemen. Or you could make swarms your priority, set yourself up as a weapons provider, and sell the ships on for e profit to those with less m and v.

High end specialist ships is something I'd like to see, but my design theory was that players would be able to make high end ships but due to the opportunity cost (only having sufficient s being able to tech up in some fields), each players ships would have weakness in certain areas based on the choices made.

@SymD: With T6 you can made an IS-capable (IP 4 Dodge 1) Beamer Frigate that's size ~90 mass ~50 that can put out 900+ EM damage.

Disenfrancised · Feb 5, 2012

Symphony D. said:
Bug Reports:

Quantity of EW Broadcasters and Jammers seems to have no effect on decreasing EW Vulnerability even though column DE in CC suggests it should; column DE not tallied in calculations anywhere, apparently. Algorithmic Interlocks does, but only for the first iteration. UPDATE: trying it on a different ship, seems to take lots to make a slight difference.

DE is the values column, DF is the relevant summation column (multiplying DE by the included components). The decreasing EW vulnerability functions are broken though! On EW vulnerability it is type of component not number - having a fusion core will raise the vulnerability by 1, providing an avenue for hacking, but having 10 will also only raise it by 1 since the nine extra systems will be identical and won't offer further access. I forgot to change this for EW Broadcasters and AInterlocks, so multiples won't give extra effect right now.

Will be fixed in V8.

Symphony D. · Feb 5, 2012

Disenfrancised said:
@SymD: With T6 you can made an IS-capable (IP 4 Dodge 1) Beamer Frigate that's size ~90 mass ~50 that can put out 900+ EM damage.

I'd rather like to see that design. Unless it uses components we can't see yet, I guess. I'm also very curious as to what its defenses look like, as a ~0.5 density doesn't bode well.

My point was that at present it feels very much like before TL6 weight limits we're building the equivalent of tachankas or technicals rather than tanks, or Somali pirate boats rather that littoral ships. They feel like improvised military hardware rather than the real thing—major sacrifices just to get it working. I'm sure a lot of that has to do with component limitations since we're not seeing much beyond TL4 in terms of components, and are just shoving those into large hulls, but there it is.

Disenfrancised · Feb 5, 2012

1 x Twist Drive
8 x REDACTED
4 x REDACTED
3 x Radiators
1 x Microwave Beamer

A bare bones design with -19 armour and no int, MD or shields obviously, a more well rounded ship would be heavier.

Yeah that's pretty much my intent, warships just aren't that good at low tech levels (but still effective because everyone else also has less great ships), and any starship needs to make sacrifices to be combat effective. The T4-5 section does contain better powerplants, drives, weapons, and all kinds of doodads with over thirty new components in all. The default on the ship designer being level 5 was just happenstance on my part (to see that the stuff which scales with tech did). You will not be building T5 ships with these components (or rather you'll be using some of these components depending on what you lag in)

Symphony D. · Feb 5, 2012

In any event, I'd like to withdraw the DAF from Simulator testing. I've got an idea for a T3/4 fleet using some components of it that I can have up in a few hours, and since nothing we can build is actually reflective of T5, there's not much point in operating at that level. (Who'd rush Construction to the exclusion of everything else anyway?)

Disenfrancised · Feb 5, 2012

There are abilities and components that only need one tech field in all the tech fields. Rushing any tech field will give you unique and fancy stuff, if that's worth it is another thing.

Kal'thzar · Feb 5, 2012

I'm going to say building a pure particle fleet is a lot harder than a pure missile one, a good deal more expensive too (non refined ion cannons are expensive, as are the various ammo components. At the moment I don't think its balanced versus the benefits of Dodge).

Sappers on a Pure Particle Fleet are required to get rid of the few points of shield that can be picked up from various places. Secondly, if you can get -ve shield THEN you can get good damage out! I'll put a fleet together and you can have a look.

Disenfrancised · Feb 5, 2012

Well particle damage isn't meant to be as big numbers as the others - its just since its hard to stop particle and particle ships can evade most things they'll have a nice long time to deal their damage in.

Kal'thzar · Feb 5, 2012

The Missile Fleet; WILL destroy most of Symphony D's fleets. Most ships have a decent amount of armour on them.

EDIT: Symphony D. helped with the carrier, see below.

Spoiler stats :

Fleet
Base Cost
Armoured Carrier 145
Supply 30
Missile 2*100
Int Boat 91
Command 112

Refined Pellet Fusion Core, Fission Busters and Jammers (1000e, less s)

Symphony D. · Feb 5, 2012

AGGRESSOR FLEET DATURA II

Aggressor Fleet Datura II (AFD2) dispenses with the ineffective Albatross booster vehicles and shifts the Mirror Sail components directly to its Blackbird Strike Fighters, allowing them to achieve a uniform IP 8. Carrier and Driver vehicles have also been modified. Both Blackbird designs have been Refined, along with and DHe Fusion Cores and Salt Sinks (838e, 334s). AFD2 utilizes CON4 and NRG4, but is otherwise T3. Advancer and Poor Safety figure into all stats.

Spoiler Ship List :

Code:

[b]AGGRESSOR FLEET DATURA II (AFD2)[/b]

[b][u]NAME				PRICE	#	COST[/b][/u]
[i]Blackbird K2[/i] B (Ref.)		20e	5	100e
[i]Blackbird N2[/i] B (Ref.)		26e	6	156e
[i]Integrator[/i] class FS		153e	1	153e
[i]Indicator[/i] class FC		169e	1	169e

[b]TOTAL						578/600e[/b]

[b]Other Costs:[/b] 282m / 214v / 0a / 4t / 167s

Code:

[b]INTEGRATOR CLASS HANGAR LOADOUT[/b]

[b][u]NAME				SIZE	#	TOTAL[/b][/u]
[i]Blackbird K2[/i] SF (Ref.)		22	5	110
[i]Blackbird N2[/i] SF (Ref.)		23	6	138

[b]TOTAL						248/248 capacity[/b]

The Integrator and Indicator enter the target area at distance, sufficient that Integrator can unload its Blackbirds comfortably and the Indicator can one-shot whatever looks to be the most dangerous and/or important ship at range, throwing enemy forces into disarray at range (Turn 1). Following this (Turn 2) the Indicator accelerates all Blackbirds up to IP 8, and they commence close on target forces, utilizing high speed to commence attack runs. The K2s are to focus on smaller, faster vessels, while N2s strike slower targets with nuclear ordinance. Continuing, (Turn 3), the Indicator is to continue attempting to one-shot key, high-value targets to cover the Blackbirds. Both Integrator and Indicator are to engage in anti-missile defense during this time.

Generally the fleet should engage in combat for no more than 5 turns (as it operates on a raid-style model) unless overwhelming odds are achieved through initial strikes. The Blackbirds are generally to be retrieved if at all possible in the event of a retreat, unless doing so puts either Frigate in mortal peril—the Blackbirds remain valuable, even if relatively inexpensive. In the event of an extreme emergency, both ships can jump away.

AFD2 inherently relies upon surprise given its offensive nature, and should generally be assumed to be the attacker (going first).

---

Provisionally adopting the following system for warships:

≤ 25 mass = Fighter/Bomber/Gunship
26-74 mass = Corvette (various)
75-200 mass = Frigate (various)
201+ mass = "Capital Ship" (Destroyer, etc.)

---

Defense doesn't seem worth worrying about in the T3-T4 era beyond maybe slapping on a Heavy Cladding and some Interceptors or Coilguns; Titanium Armor is kinda useless—more for peace of mind than anything. (I'd strip it off the Blackbirds but would have to rebalance everything again.) You don't get good armor or shields until T5, the Nets seem meh, and Jets are way too pricey. The era seems marked by fight-or-flight, raid-style actions.

Symphony D. · Feb 5, 2012

Kal, why on earth would you bother armoring External Hangars? That seems like a tremendous waste of mass. Lose a little armor and switch to Internals and you come out like 30 Armor ahead and maybe 15e tops more expensive.

Pre-SysNES2: Beta-testing and Submission

Deity

Deity

Deity

Le Pétit Prince

Deity

Le Pétit Prince

Deity

Deity

Deity

Beep Beep

Beep Beep

Deity

Beep Beep

Deity

Beep Beep

Deity

Beep Beep

Deity

Deity

Deity

Similar threads