Preliminary Dural Ideas

[WarKirby]

Not a bad idea. The only thing I worry about with such an idea is cluttering the build list. In vanilla BTS, every building is helpful in some way shape or form. In this game, I rarely ever want to build gambling houses because later on, the maintenance increase costs more than the income from the building!

I do agree that the build list is a bit cluttered, but I'd say this is more to do with the monolithic interface, than there being too many things.

It's be nice if there could be seperate tabs of what to build. Units, Economy, Military, Wonders, Rituals, etc.

As to the Gambling houses, they're always worth it in my experience. They give +3 gold, and +10% maintenance. Which means your city maintenance has to be >30 per turn for it to not be worthwhile.

I've never, EVER seen a city with more than 20 maintenance cost, and that was a city on another continent when I had a world spanning empire. A well managed empire should never have that sort of maintenance problems. Civics like Aristocracy and City States, as well as good placement of Summmer/Winter palace, will ensure your maintenance stays low. And courthouses can get rid of a large portion of what's left.

Also remember that the +3 it gives is an absolute value. Which means all % modifiers are applied to it. If you have a money changer and Tax office in the city, it actually gives 4.5

If you've got stuff like smugglers ports, silver circle, Bazaar of Mammon, etc. Anything that adds absolute amounts of gold income to that city is utterly priceless, and a gambling house pays for itself many times over.

And also, lets not forget the massive happiness benefits it can bring. I find that as the game wears on, I'm usually running 70-80% research to make a tidy profit for buying master equipment. That also means that I'm getting 2-3 extra from every gambling house.

 

[Valkrionn]

This is basically my take on it. A Dural UB that gives a basic level of the Equipment to all units built in that city. I would do 1 UB per type (melee, mounted, recon, archer) just like the equipment buildings are now.

That would give an advantage, yet give a reason for those buildings still i.e. further upgrades. That would give them an advantage early.

Add on a couple Dural specific pieces of gear to buy from them too to help out late.

Of course... if the Doviello get the ability to steal gear... this could come back to hurt them.

Atm, they actually HAVE that ability in Doviello+... Only for the Bronze/Iron/Mithril Weapons and Enchanted Blade, though. There are people arguing for the master gear as well, but I think it's too unbalancing.

 

[Valkrionn]

I do agree that the build list is a bit cluttered, but I'd say this is more to do with the monolithic interface, than there being too many things.

It's be nice if there could be seperate tabs of what to build. Units, Economy, Military, Wonders, Rituals, etc.

As to the Gambling houses, they're always worth it in my experience. They give +3 gold, and +10% maintenance. Which means your city maintenance has to be >30 per turn for it to not be worthwhile.

I've never, EVER seen a city with more than 20 maintenance cost, and that was a city on another continent when I had a world spanning empire. A well managed empire should never have that sort of maintenance problems. Civics like Aristocracy and City States, as well as good placement of Summmer/Winter palace, will ensure your maintenance stays low. And courthouses can get rid of a large portion of what's left.

Also remember that the +3 it gives is an absolute value. Which means all % modifiers are applied to it. If you have a money changer and Tax office in the city, it actually gives 4.5

If you've got stuff like smugglers ports, silver circle, Bazaar of Mammon, etc. Anything that adds absolute amounts of gold income to that city is utterly priceless, and a gambling house pays for itself many times over.

And also, lets not forget the massive happiness benefits it can bring. I find that as the game wears on, I'm usually running 70-80% research to make a tidy profit for buying master equipment. That also means that I'm getting 2-3 extra from every gambling house.

Bringing in another of Greyfox's mods would help with the cluttered build lists...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=276218

 

[Breez]

I do agree that the build list is a bit cluttered, but I'd say this is more to do with the monolithic interface, than there being too many things.

It's be nice if there could be seperate tabs of what to build. Units, Economy, Military, Wonders, Rituals, etc.

As to the Gambling houses, they're always worth it in my experience. They give +3 gold, and +10% maintenance. Which means your city maintenance has to be >30 per turn for it to not be worthwhile.

I've never, EVER seen a city with more than 20 maintenance cost, and that was a city on another continent when I had a world spanning empire. A well managed empire should never have that sort of maintenance problems. Civics like Aristocracy and City States, as well as good placement of Summmer/Winter palace, will ensure your maintenance stays low. And courthouses can get rid of a large portion of what's left.

Also remember that the +3 it gives is an absolute value. Which means all % modifiers are applied to it. If you have a money changer and Tax office in the city, it actually gives 4.5

If you've got stuff like smugglers ports, silver circle, Bazaar of Mammon, etc. Anything that adds absolute amounts of gold income to that city is utterly priceless, and a gambling house pays for itself many times over.

And also, lets not forget the massive happiness benefits it can bring. I find that as the game wears on, I'm usually running 70-80% research to make a tidy profit for buying master equipment. That also means that I'm getting 2-3 extra from every gambling house.

Exaclty. Add to that, Courthouse reduces that 10% increase to an effective 6% increase

 

[Breez]

Bringing in another of Greyfox's mods would help with the cluttered build lists...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=276218

wow that mod is amazing. I Love the Civopedia rearrangement. Much easier to read

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, I'd be happy with just the build popup.

 

[Opera]

Bringing in another of Greyfox's mods would help with the cluttered build lists...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=276218

Huh This is cool. Especially the building list and the civilization article, much easier to read! Too bad it's this old and has never been added.

 

[apotheoser]

Yeah, that mod is pretty awesome. I wish we could get it in here but from Greyfox's description it doesn't sound like it's too easy to do.

 

[Breez]

LOL Okay they are almost a year old but from that thread...

Amazing work. Very nicely done.

I guess my next question is obvious

Can I plunder it for Fall Further related uses?

Thought you might say that - but I always do anyway wherever possible

I've spent the last 10 minutes or so looking at what you've actually done codewise - some very nice work in there. Might be a while before I get chance to fully port it over, but I'm very impressed.

Thanks.

 

[Mylon]

Exaclty. Add to that, Courthouse reduces that 10% increase to an effective 6% increase

Incorrect. The gambling house on top of a court-house built city is going from 60% to 70%, a 17% increase! I can see how it is still profitable, but the idea of it hurting organized empires more bugs me (going from their 30% maintenance to 40% or so on).

 

[deadliver]

Odd. When I read that quickly what I see is "I think the AI should be doomed!"


Super-specialization is a neat idea, but I think it might be better reserved for a civ that's really *into* the military. The Bannor, maybe. Hmm... though it's not as extreme and has some drawbacks an expanded Gear system could offer specialization and would fit the Dural better IMO.

I think the Dural should have to pay for their gear, just that they do not need to start off with the buildings to do so. Granted that means they will need to grab lotsa gold before they can crank out these units but hey that is what adaptive trait is for. I used it to get Financial and soaked up coin with my plantations and towns. Also according to the pedia the Dural are prone to specializing in things.

 

[WarKirby]

I'd REALLY love to see that interface improvement mod. Looks like it would be so much neater

Incorrect. The gambling house on top of a court-house built city is going from 60% to 70%, a 17% increase! I can see how it is still profitable, but the idea of it hurting organized empires more bugs me (going from their 30% maintenance to 40% or so on).

How does it hurt organised empires more?
The maintenance increase hurts eveyone the same. But Organised civs are more likely to have courthouses to offset it

But as has been pointed out, a gambling house is still significantly profitable in all but the most extreme circumstances..

 

[Cadaveres]

If it is about being perfectionists, maybe we shouldn't focus just on the units. We could let the Dural have improved UB versions of every standard building that costs more but have improved effects.

- A courthouse costing more hammers and having extra maintenance reduction.
- A theatre costing more hammers but providing extra culture and happiness.
- A library providing extra research and maybe one extra sage.
- The training buildings giving extra training...

Also, another option for them would be to have an extra final tier of buildings

- A Bank that gives an extra +25% commerce.
- A Research Centre giving extra +25% research and more sages.
- A Government Counselor office, reducing maintenance
- An extreme training facility for training of units...

Well, maybe the names are not the best but the idea is there...

 

[WarKirby]

If it is about being perfectionists, maybe we shouldn't focus just on the units. We could let the Dural have improved UB versions of every standard building that costs more but have improved effects.

This seems a bit silly. Replacing EVERYTHING is a lot of work, and really clutters the civilopedia.

- A Bank that gives an extra +25% commerce.
- A Research Centre giving extra +25% research and more sages.
- A Government Counselor office, reducing maintenance
- An extreme training facility for training of units...

And I like this idea.
I do agree that an extra maintenance reduction build would be particularly useful, since they can't adopt Order and make basilicas

 

[deadliver]

I agree with Warkirby that a complete revamp of the building list would be too extreme but the extra tier of buildings (such as the Bank or counselor buildings you mentioned) would be a cool idea.

I'd like to see the Dural perhaps gain their own civic too but I am still working on that. Are the Dural considered one of the magic civs lorewise?

 

[Rutee]

Er...

Why is redoing buildings clutter, but making an entire army of UUs with a large number of attending UBs A-Okay? Just kinda curious here, after amusing myself with the Scions.

 

[deadliver]

The pedia should be cluttered. Who wants lore? I want MOAR!

However redoing ALL of the buildings available to a civ so that they are UB would be a lot of work man. Most of the work would be tracking down building models that make sense for the civ (or making them yourself).

How about giving culture gains for every trade route in the city?

...but making an entire army of UUs with a large number of attending UBs A-Okay? Just kinda curious here, after amusing myself with the Scions.

Not sure where you go this idea btw. My idea is that the Dural should be able to buy weapon promos representing quality gear w/o having to build the Master buildings needed (of course they do not gain the extra gold etc from the buildings unless they build them).

 

[Rutee]

Well, I understand your idea. I like it. But someone else pointed out that their perfectionism should apply to their BUILDINGS, as well as their units. Warkirby suggested that it is too much effort to rebuild their entire buildings list.

I submit that in fact, this isn't necessarily true; The Scions have a completely redone unit list (Effectively every unit is a UU), and a host of UBs. It's easier to focus on units due to interest, but if you really wanted to, redoing infrastructure is just as possible.

 

[WarKirby]

I submit that in fact, this isn't necessarily true; The Scions have a completely redone unit list (Effectively every unit is a UU), and a host of UBs. It's easier to focus on units due to interest, but if you really wanted to, redoing infrastructure is just as possible.

Well, their archers, horsemen, and chariots, are only unique visually, no extra function. And I could swear at least a few of those graphics are borrowed from the Infernals

 

[deadliver]

Well, I understand your idea. I like it. But someone else pointed out that their perfectionism should apply to their BUILDINGS, as well as their units. Warkirby suggested that it is too much effort to rebuild their entire buildings list.

I submit that in fact, this isn't necessarily true; The Scions have a completely redone unit list (Effectively every unit is a UU), and a host of UBs. It's easier to focus on units due to interest, but if you really wanted to, redoing infrastructure is just as possible.

Wouldn't it be easier to give them a civ trait that just increases the effectiveness of their buildings?