Previous Games' Features/Mods' Features that you want to see back in Civ7

[Zegangani]

I just stumbled over This Thread, that mentions Unit talking in Civ IV. I read through a lot of articles of previous Games in the Civ Wiki, but they all (except Civ V and VI) have so little/few information on how the Games really were (especially Civ 1/2/3). I haven't played those Games so I don't know anything about them exept what's on the Civ Wiki. So I'm wondering what else of good features that were in those previous Games that didn't make it into later iterations. So if you have played them, please share with us CivNewbies your Experience and Favorite things from the previous Games (the more detailed the merrier ).

You can also include things from Mods that you liked. I recently saw Aristos mentioning Realism Invictus, but investigating the Mod I didn't found a list of all its features (either briefly described or detailed), apart from the last Update's changes. And many other Mods also don't have a Features List, that describes how they work.

Would be nice to see why Games like Civ IV still have a significant Player/Fan-base.

 

[Zaarin]

I've been pushing for Civ7 to have an ethnicity feature, and Civ4 did have a somewhat simplistic ethnicity/culture feature--though I'm looking more to ES2 as my model here.

 

[Zegangani]

I've been pushing for Civ7 to have an ethnicity feature, and Civ4 did have a somewhat simplistic ethnicity/culture feature--though I'm looking more to ES2 as my model here.

Yes, the Nationality Feature in Civ IV seems good. Imagine getting Culture from Foreign Cities with Citizens with your Nationality/Culture.

I can actually see Civ7 going more with individuality, not just for Leaders and Great People, but also for Citizens, with Ethnicity, Profession, Relligion...etc. And I somehow have the Feeling that we will see "We love the King Day" again.

 

[PiR]

You can find mods descriptions for some of them :
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/welcome-to-dawn-of-civilization.533861/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/rhyes-and-fall-of-europe-starting-information.363679/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-sword-of-islam-rfc-medieval-middle-east.373155/

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/mod-contents.671317/

 

[Krajzen]

Ideology clash from civ5 modern eras was an awesome, historical, brilliant idea actually introducing a lot of immersion and dynamism to the issue of 4X lategame, the fact it wasn't developed further in civ6 in favour of the most random and nonsensical ideas for diplomacy and lategame was a crime.

Civ5 world congress, gee what a pity that idea was completely abandoned in civ6, though it's still better than some shoddy nonsensical implementation breaking any and all common sense and starting in the medieval era when nobody knows each other

Civ5 leaders personality spreadsheets so they actually played in very different and distinctive ways.

Civ4 diplomacy with its clear numerical attitudes and vassalage (but without tech trading, that's really derailing mechanic).

Civ4 random events, but more fair and being about dilemmas (like in Humankind) instead of 'rocks fall you suddenly lose some stuff lol'.

Some weird hybrid of civ4 civics, civ5 social trees and civ6 policies and govs, creating a political institutions mechanic cooler than it ever was before.

Civ4 cottages developing into small towns, because it felt so organic and realistic (it also just felt good that your empire is not just huge cities separated by nothing).

Civ4 normal and sane mechanic of cities having separate happiness, instead of some abstract nonsense such as collective happiness,
which disables the need to take care of any individual city.

 

[Zegangani]

You can find mods descriptions for some of them : . . .

I've seen those Threads, but I still can't get how the Stability System in Rhye's and Fall works for example (like what exactly affects it and to how extent), but Thanks!

(but without tech trading, that's really derailing mechanic).

I'm curious, could you explain why that didn't work well in Civ4 / why you don't like it?

 

[Krajzen]

I'm curious, could you explain why that [tech trading] didn't work well in Civ4 / why you don't like it?

How would you solve the snowballing & endgame problem?

 

[PiR]

Civ4 diplomacy with its clear numerical attitudes and vassalage (but without tech trading, that's really derailing mechanic).

I agree with @Solver that the No Tech Brokering solved that issue

I've seen those Threads, but I still can't get how the Stability System in Rhye's and Fall works for example (like what exactly affects it and to how extent), but Thanks!

It depends on the modmod an example here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/stability-guide.564135/
But a key aspect is that with these mods the map is fixed and not generated differently for each game (example). Therefore each region / each tile has a historical check versus what happened irl. Of course Civ base game cannot be like that.
Let me know if there is more you don't understand!

 

[Zegangani]

How would you solve the snowballing & endgame problem?

I see. I guess the linear Tech Tree in Civ doesn't allow for such a Mechanic. If we would have Techs that branch off from the main (linear) Tech Branch (a hybrid Tech Tree with linear Techs and seperated Categories), then we could have those Techs tradable, because they wouldn't cause big Balance Issues (if the Hybrid Tech Tree is done correct).

 

[Zegangani]

It depends on the modmod an example here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/stability-guide.564135/
But a key aspect is that with these mods the map is fixed and not generated differently for each game (example). Therefore each region / each tile has a historical check versus what happened irl. Of course Civ base game cannot be like that.

Thanks @PiR for the Links! I guess I just should dig deeper to find the infos I'm looking for.

And nice Discussions there in the OldWorld Forum. I'm considering giving another chance to playing the Game, but at earliest after I finish the first Pack of my Mod. Might inspire me for more things.

 

[PiR]

You should definitely take time to read Soren's design reflections, they are totally worth the time.
https://twitter.com/SorenJohnson/status/1446459496012947459
https://twitter.com/SorenJohnson/status/1443917777820082178
https://twitter.com/SorenJohnson/status/1438319414110298119
https://twitter.com/SorenJohnson/status/1435440586052579329
https://twitter.com/SorenJohnson/status/1432778901839831041
https://twitter.com/SorenJohnson/status/1430229443784622081
https://twitter.com/SorenJohnson/status/1428057298904043520
I missed one?
https://twitter.com/SorenJohnson/status/1422239345365291010
https://twitter.com/SorenJohnson/status/1419841718229344258

well the blog is down at the moment hopefully it's back up soon

 

[Zegangani]

You should definitely take time to read Soren's design reflections, they are totally worth the time.

I'll definitely do that!
Looking at Old World just makes me ask the question, how Civ V could have been if Soren Johnsen stayed at Firaxis and was the Lead Designer of the Game? Not to mention Civ VI. But it comes as it has to come. I enjoy Civ anyway, and I will also give another chance to OldWorld, even if I don't like the Familiy Tree Aspect of the Game, and it being limited to the Old World only.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

You can also include things from Mods that you liked. I recently saw Aristos mentioning Realism Invictus, but investigating the Mod I didn't found a list of all its features (either briefly described or detailed), apart from the last Update's changes.

Hey, that's a bit unfair - not only does the first post in the mod thread have a short writeup: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/realism-invictus.411799/, but I also maintain a rather large manual that details all the features (link in the same first post).

 

[Zegangani]

Hey, that's a bit unfair - not only does the first post in the mod thread have a short writeup: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/realism-invictus.411799/, but I also maintain a rather large manual that details all the features (link in the same first post).

Oh Yes, I forgot about the writeup, I was also looking at other Civ 4 Mods as well at that Time and must have confused it with another one. Investigating the Mod's Forum again, I now found the Manual in the SourceForge Link. I didn't think I would find it in the download section of the Mod when I first searched for it, so I haven't looked there.

I didn't mean to speak low of your Mod, if that's the Impression my Post left. But thanks for the clarifying! taking a closer look at the Manual it all looks really well described.

 

[PiR]

To be honest the forums are so vast that it can be overwhelming to find all that information at once!

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

NP; just thought I'd help out a bit

On the topic of the thread though, I don't think it's fair to compare modern Civ games to older ones. The 1UPT and district mechanics basically led to a genre (or at least sub-genre) change in my opinion. Modern Civ titles play more like board games and lots of stuff there requires a different approach design-wise. Basically, the endless "which Civ game is better" debates to me feel like "what is better, Civ 6 or AoE3?". As a long-standing maker of a major mod for Civ 4, I wouldn't know where to start with Civ 6, for instance - but it definitely wouldn't be direct porting of any features from older titles and mods for them.

Though I do agree with certain things that have always been detrimental for the series as a whole - like tech/map trading, and there always were for me certain things I'd love to see more in all Civ-like games - namely, more visual and functional diversity between various civs. I know functional variety is difficult to balance and visual variety requires lots of resources poured into it, so real life does put constraints on both of those. Still, simple stuff like visual changes in the equipment of the same unit as seen in Humankind (a Carthaginan swordsman would look different from a Gothic one due to interchangeable pieces of equipment like shields, helmets etc) always brings me much joy.

 

[PiR]

Looking at Old World just makes me ask the question, how Civ V could have been if Soren Johnsen stayed at Firaxis and was the Lead Designer of the Game? Not to mention Civ VI. But it comes as it has to come.

And what if Georges Lucas had done all the Star Wars?
However... what if Christopher Reeve was the only actor ever to portrayed Superman? Sometimes you need someone else to bring fresh ideas and renew a genre.

I will also give another chance to OldWorld, even if I don't like the Familiy Tree Aspect of the Game, and it being limited to the Old World only.

These are 2 key aspects, maybe OW isn't for you then. But the design notes of OW I think you will enjoy reading, given your posts and thinking around game concepts.

 

[Solver]

I'll definitely do that!
Looking at Old World just makes me ask the question, how Civ V could have been if Soren Johnsen stayed at Firaxis and was the Lead Designer of the Game? Not to mention Civ VI. But it comes as it has to come.

In Soren's own words, Civ is better off bringing new people on. He touches upon this subject in a recent podcast, definitely worth a listen.

 

[Zegangani]

On the topic of the thread though, I don't think it's fair to compare modern Civ games to older ones. The 1UPT and district mechanics basically led to a genre (or at least sub-genre) change in my opinion. Modern Civ titles play more like board games and lots of stuff there requires a different approach design-wise. Basically, the endless "which Civ game is better" debates to me feel like "what is better, Civ 6 or AoE3?". As a long-standing maker of a major mod for Civ 4, I wouldn't know where to start with Civ 6, for instance - but it definitely wouldn't be direct porting of any features from older titles and mods for them.

Yes, the Design changes the Devs made from Civ IV to Civ V were really Game Changing, and Civ VI made that Design gap even bigger with an emphasize on Board Game Mechanics (which is good and bad at the same time), however I've encountered a lot of Civ IV Fans who also like Civ VI and they state that it's much closer to IV than V, which seems to be a no-go for many Civ IV Players. But you're right, a direct Comparison between the Civ Titles is superfluous, especially since the Devs redesign the Game (and most of its Mechanics/Systems) with each Iteration. And here is why I opened this Thread, which isn't about just copying Features from older Games into newer ones, but more of getting Features that worked well in those older Games and that can still be relevant for newer Ones, and revise them for these latter. Like Forced Labour, which totally lacks in Civ VI and is not represented with any kind of active Mechanic that isn't a +x% Production to Builders Policy. So (mostly) anything that has to do with Units and Tile Infrastructure from previous Iterations of the Game would be redundant to suggest for newer Titles.

Though I do agree with certain things that have always been detrimental for the series as a whole - like tech/map trading, and there always were for me certain things I'd love to see more in all Civ-like games - namely, more visual and functional diversity between various civs. I know functional variety is difficult to balance and visual variety requires lots of resources poured into it, so real life does put constraints on both of those. Still, simple stuff like visual changes in the equipment of the same unit as seen in Humankind (a Carthaginan swordsman would look different from a Gothic one due to interchangeable pieces of equipment like shields, helmets etc) always brings me much joy.

In Civ VI the Devs made a great Job in making diverse and distinct Civs, making the Leaders having their own Traits and the Districts Systems allowing for more Unique Infrastructure for some Civs made each Civ Unique, and some have even a more special functionality, like Maori's Ocean Start and Vietnam's District placement restriction on forests/rainforests only. I'm also more of a Visual Player who likes diversity and variety in the Graphics, which is why I'm so mad about the Asset limit Bug that doesn' allow the use of the Warfare Expanded Mod for example, which makes distinct visuals for Unit Types for each Civ in the Game, just like you described (and it isn't limited to Early Game Units like in Humankind).

And what if Georges Lucas had done all the Star Wars?
However... what if Christopher Reeve was the only actor ever to portrayed Superman? Sometimes you need someone else to bring fresh ideas and renew a genre.

Completely Right about that, PiR.

These are 2 key aspects, maybe OW isn't for you then. But the design notes of OW I think you will enjoy reading, given your posts and thinking around game concepts.

Yes, I'm really interested in reading those, I'm just waiting for the Website to work .

n Soren's own words, Civ is better off bringing new people on. He touches upon this subject in a recent podcast, definitely worth a listen.

Thank you for pointing me out to the Podcast! It's been some Months ago since I've listened to one of Soren Johnson's Podcasts (where he talked about his Journey that lead him to Civ, AI Design and many other Things).

 

[Zaarin]

And what if Georges Lucas had done all the Star Wars?

We'd have bad sequels instead of execrable sequels.

Yes, the Design changes the Devs made from Civ IV to Civ V were really Game Changing, and Civ VI made that Design gap even bigger with an emphasize on Board Game Mechanics (which is good and bad at the same time), however I've encountered a lot of Civ IV Fans who also like Civ VI and they state that it's much closer to IV than V, which seems to be a no-go for many Civ IV Players. But you're right, a direct Comparison between the Civ Titles is superfluous, especially since the Devs redesign the Game (and most of its Mechanics/Systems) with each Iteration. And here is why I opened this Thread, which isn't about just copying Features from older Games into newer ones, but more of getting Features that worked well in those older Games and that can still be relevant for newer Ones, and revise them for these latter.

I agree with this. Each game has done things very differently, but I think it's fair to assume that the dev's do look to the older games for inspiration at times. I also agree that Civ6 is more like Civ4 than Civ5 is; I don't agree that the franchise has undergone a fundamental genre change. A change in design philosophy, perhaps, but Civ has always been and is still a historically-flavored 4X game.