Prince and beyond, how to win the race?

[DaemonDivinity]

Ok, I am a Civ veteran. I loved the original, II, didn't love CtP and III, but played them. Warlord the first time through was easy enough, an interesting learning experience. Next time it wasn't even close. Noble turned into an interesting little event with me taking an early continent from Mansa (was tough but necessary). Problem is his superior units slowed me down, which meant by the time the others found me they were more advanced. I quickly outtraded them, then outpaced their economies (I swear, liberalism is godly). However, I think this highlights what seems to be a plaguing issue for me on the higher levels.

I seem to have trouble balancing expansion, military, and science. Every game I played I ended up very off balance in terms of these things. I quickly discovered that due to cultural bonuses and borders early military is a lot less feasible as expansion than those settlers, until there's just no more room to take. But then with all those cities, I seem to be falling behind technologically. So I try to catch up that way (while building my infrastructure), and then someone starts a war and my archers are facing off against musketteers. So I have to build and upgrade my military, then fall behind again tech-wise. I have a solid late game, but the first 3/4 of it tend to be perilous.

So I just started playing on Prince, and I started off strong I felt, with like 5 cities rapidly. Alexander declared war early but when he landed at my door I made peace (my army is underdeveloped). Caesar beside me was at first my neighbor and started to encroach on what I felt should have been my space and city sites, so I began to look to war with him. He's only about 1/2 to 3/4 my point value. So I go to get the real war tech now. Except it's taken WAY too long, and now he's about 1-1/2 my point value, in less than a dozen turns. My tech has dropped way down (40%), and I have nothing worth trading. I figure the game is due for a reset, but I need some tips.

Here's what I did:
1. Let capital hit 3, build warriors meanwhile and explore.
2. Build settlers, make 2 cities at key resources (horses and copper) which I identified early.
3. Worked to improve capital.
4. Built two more settlers and cities.
5. Built workers to make resources flow.
6. Looked into war tech.

I think it's really I need to work on my ability to wage war iin the early game. Any advice there how to do it, without decimating myself for later on?

 

[DsevenO]

A bump because I'm stuck at Prince level with the exact same probs - early wars cripple me technologically, but if I don't wage them I don't have the population I need for late game research.

 

[Volstag]

I'm approaching the end of my 2nd prince game. My first attempt left me in the middle of the pack around the mid 19th century. I figured it was too late in the game to have any realistic shot at a victory, so I retired. I'm my current Prince game, I'm on top of the leaderboard. I was hoping for a diplomatic victory, but that appears to be largely impossible. Right now I'm gearing up my industry for a run at space-race. I'm fairly confident I'll be able to get it... but we'll see.

What helped for me, in my 2nd game, was a greater emphasis on early expansion. In my first prince game, my expansion paths were sealed off relatively quickly. I also played around with settling on the extreme frontiers and then "backfilling" towards the capital. If done correctly, you can block the expansion of the AI and, more importantly, save territory for later settling. A lot depends on the geography, and how many "neighbors" are in your area, but the standard "radiate out" settling pattern doesn't seem to cut it.

The problem with expansion is that you have to keep a closer eye on your income. If you expand too fast, you'll be hard pressed to stay afloat financially. When my gpt began running too low, I'd take the time to work on my income and infrastructure.

 

[John Lenin]

A major problem for me as well, although in my current game on Prince I have found a 'workaround' type of solution.

I have managed to get two great merchants for the first time in Civ4. Don't ask me how I did it - obviously there's a definite path, improvements and wonders and specialists etc. - but I did it without meaning to.

Sent both great merchants to the farthest, biggest AI city just like the tooltip advised, and - wow! 3000 gold from the first one. 4000 gold from the second.

This cash has enabled me to keep science at 80% all the time I'm building improvements and a really strong military. My losses each turn are only -40 or so, and I can afford to upgrade units when I like without seeing that little nest egg diminish by much. I'm currently tinkering with my capital city's settings to get another merchant to pop out a.s.a.p. I'm one or two techs ahead coming up to the year 1800 (playing an Epic game). I'm gonna win! (I'll have to make some serious errors not to.)

So there's one answer: great merchants that enable you to keep science high no matter what else is happening.

 

[DaemonDivinity]

I tried the aggressive expansion route, killed my science. I'm worried I'm not really making the correct use of workers and religion though. Everyone else says they're great tools, I just haven't figured out how to prioritize them.

One thing's for sure though, I will try to race to Liberalism on my next game.

 

[Astax]

Early war is the only way! Im beating Monarch because of early war. It works of course cause Im facing one AI on a small map. So warring him right a way seems to hold him at bay. My last game I was Huyan facing the Romans. And I used my warriors with Woodsman upgrades to camp outside his city and kept tabs on his expension. He wasnt able to break through them till I had 3 cities, then he went for copper. by then he was way behind, I took that city, he planted anotehr and razed my 4th, my fault really :/ But I took his 3rd city and then his capital. I was using Catapults swordmen horse archers and a lonely spearman. Most he could field agianst me were archers and Chariots. By the time I overan his capital his troops were on strike. Then I took his last city. Took awhile. Victory came at 500AD and a measily score of 38K. But I'll work on it. I had a good starting spot with tons of flood plains which allowed my first 2 cities to have a total of 7 nice cottages and have good production. I could not imagine playing tech game agianst the AI, it just doesnt seem like a battle you want to get into.

 

[John Lenin]

I forgot to say that moving Great Merchants to a big, distant AI city gives you wonderful warm memories of moving caravans to create trade in Civ2

 

[dar]

You have to be somewhat careful when waging early war. Taking four or five cities early may seem great, but it will kill your research. Wage war in stages, take a city or two and build up your economy a bit, then go to war again.

Specialise your cities! Cities with low production potential should become cottage farms which will pay for your high city maintanance early on. Later they will become research powerhouses once you build lib/uni/obs in them and courthouses in your new cities.

Skip founding the early religions if you are going to war early. Instead concentrate on the mining/bronze/iron route to get units and the worker techs to build up your economy. Grab either (or both) confusionism or christianity from theology or code of laws later on since you WILL need both of these techs as early as possible anyway. The easiest way to get them is to either:

• Build stonehenge early and use the great prophet to discover theology once you research the prerequisites.
• Build the oracle and take code of laws or theology as your free tech
• Do both, getting two very useful and somewhat expensive techs for free.

 

[Gufnork]

I disagree, when you go to war, you go to war. But make sure that you win. As long as you can keep taking cities at regular intervals your army will pay for itself. Don't keep any mediocre cities, just the really good ones (generally capitals, holy cities, flood plains or lots of resources). If you're not sure if it's worth keeping, just raze it. You can always build a new city there later. Try and clean out your continent if at all possible and after you do, get rid of any rookies that cost you upkeep and start building infrastructure.

 

[DaemonDivinity]

You really do need construction to win wars don't you?

 

[dar]

You really do need construction to win wars don't you?

Not necisarily. If you have enough production capability to swamp your enemy with units then go ahead. If not wait for catapults. Rome and Persia can both wage war very effectively before construction because of their UUs. The Incas might be able to do well with a very early war, but I havnt played them much.

 

[Byrath]

A bump because I'm stuck at Prince level with the exact same probs - early wars cripple me technologically, but if I don't wage them I don't have the population I need for late game research.

You don't necessarily need to have the largest land mass to keep up or win the tech race. I was able to keep just ahead of the AI on Prince with the 4th largest land mass out of 5 opponents. I was playing Tokugawa (agg/org), so no advantage there with the financial trait, and founded no religion, so I was missing out on a lot of cash.
I did have a good selection of resources to support high populations in my cities and made good trades for some others. I also did not focus whatsoever on recieving great people; instead I built my cities for high production and research, with no idle citizens to turn into specialists, and focused on infrastructure instead of wonders. I built very very few wonders until late in the game when I had cities with little else to build.
I don't know if this strategy is really one to recommend, but it worked ok for me.

 

[sir_q]

I find it necessary to go the forest-chop-settler route. Before I realized how effective this tactic could be, I played a few Prince games just producing settlers the old-fashioned way, and lost all of them, whether to a space race or just being conquered by a stronger neighbor.

Now, I set my capital to making a warrior and research mining (unless I start with mining, in which case I often just make a worker my first build). Mining usually finishes right as the warrior is getting done; next I go for bronze working and start making a worker. Those two also generally finish around the same time, within a few turns; at this point, I switch production to settlers and send the worker to start chopping trees. I usually overexpand and build three or four settlers in quick succession this way and finally stop when my income is seriously in the red.

But it works - I generally have four cities by the time the AIs have two, and remain in the lead ad infinitum.

 

[DaemonDivinity]

Restarted with this method, playing as Saladin. Used the Worker-Chop method, though probably made too many workers for the purpose. Nonetheless I jumped in the lead, and it went back and forth for a while, but because I got 3 stable cities before going on, and they were all well developed, I was able to get a good tech and cultural lead. Then took off with Liberalism. Admittedly the religions were bringing in a lot (2 of them with prophets in the starter cities of both). Ironically Confuscianism and Taoism, and Mao Zetung to my north who, no matter how he was 'pleased' would not stop fighting wars. (Does the AI care that all his cities had my 2 religions?) Anyway, first war I just pushed him back, second war took a city, third war took another. I think he learned his lesson. Then turned on the Incas who had been border-jostling with me the whole game. Tank sweep through the capital. Their tanks and infantry are now materializing, but it's 1856 and I'm 4 turns from composites (and I finally have coal to railroad, taking it right from them). I'll just upgrade my tanks to modern armor, and take the rest of their empire I think. I have enough of a tech lead that the commanding board position matters more now.

Two questions though... in the old Civs you could use Caravans to speed wonders. Is there anything still like that? (Three Gorges Dam will be another 90 turns otherwise). And finally, is there another method to jump ahead, or is worker-chop the only feasible one?

 

[dar]

Two questions though... in the old Civs you could use Caravans to speed wonders. Is there anything still like that? (Three Gorges Dam will be another 90 turns otherwise).

There are plenty of ways to rush wonders:

• Great Engineers
• Forest Chops
• Pop Rush with Slavery
• Cash Rush with Universal Sufferage

In my last game going to 0% research for 6 turns gave me enough cash to rush the Three Gorges Dam.

 

[DaemonDivinity]

Great Engineers keep saying they can only rush normal buildings.
Most of my cities have been deforested.
I don't have nearly the 100+ pop to slaverush it.
6,000+ gold wasn't enough to rush it. Any good idea as to the number I should shoot for?

 

[tempuraki]

Great engineer can provide a large number of production point toward a wonder. Having the Kremlin wonder will help with rushing, cutting the cost by half, I was able to cash rush a half completed Pentagon for a little more than 1k in gold.

Also I think there is still a cost panelty for trying to rush anything brand new, meaning when no production is applied to it yet, can someone confirm?

 

[StevenJoyce]

Great Engineers cannot rush Projects (e.g., Spaceship Parts). They can rush (or partially rush) Wonders.

 

[Bezhukov]

I'm two for three on emperor (the two wins were 1905 and 1915 space, both by about 10/15 turns over the AI), and I'd say the key is making sure some war is going on. The loss was entirely peaceful - not one shot was fired in the entire world the whole game. I was on track to launch about 1890 myself, but Mansa built Apollo in 1675 and was gone by 1860.

If you don't distract the AI by sowing some seeds of discord, they will team up with each other and outpace you.

The other key is getting off to a solid start yourself, and this involves one thing: workers (or occasionally, workboats). You have to get your food bonuses fired up ASAP, and nothing is a higher priority. Not nabbing religions, chopping settlers, whatever. Once you've got all that extra food, it opens up all kinds of strategic options.

 

[Astax]

Great Engineers cannot rush Projects (e.g., Spaceship Parts). They can rush (or partially rush) Wonders.

They can only rush BUILDING wonders or buildings. They can't rush Appolo Program or Manhattan Project, crap like that.