[BTS] Prince Shadow Game: Cyrus of Persia

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 3: Expanding and the pyramids (T40 - T70)

T41:
Pigs are pastured, and our first city has pop 5 now. We go for a second worker now.

We need to do the maths about the pyramids: We can get 10 per turn in our capital now, which means 25 turns with stone:

The stones can be connected around T49. So we are ready in T74 without chopping. One chop saves me 2 turns, so 1 chop is necessary to get the pyramids early enough no other AI has a chance for it, comparing the dates for Immortal here:

M

[BTS] Thread 'Wonderdates'

Apr 6, 2020

I have compiled some statistics from my deity and immortal games. This shows when the AI gets certain wonders and Lib, when I have not. It is standard settings. Fractal and random opponents (6+human). The games are usually played with the Better BUG AI-mod.

• Major Tom
• Replies: 14
• Forum: Civ4 Strategy Articles

• 

We need to take in memory, we need 1 turn revolution, so maybe we should prepare for 2-3 chops.

Until T49 we can do:
- Build a worker 'til T47
- Start a settler and whipping it the right moment can give me ~20 for the pyramids

Result:
We can afford to build one worker and one settler before the mids are started with 200% speed.

T47:
Our second worker is ready, and stone city raised to size 3. It now can fully use 3 good tiles and should contribute in worker production soon. Note, how we switched the capital to the -tiles and the stone-city use the cottages to contribute as helper-city. We plan to finish the warrior in Stone City same turn, when it raises to size 4. Thenafter it can build workers and settlers. The savefile is attached.

We found Joao in the South:

Remark: Augustus and Joao don't know each other yet.

T50:
Revolution is over, we now have Slavery and can start to chop. And we are lucky: We can 2-whip our settler with 20 overflow, which will flow into the pyramids.

One worker will build a mine onto the forested PH

There are some potential city spots:

The safe play would be to settle on the Production City spot, but we can try for Blocking city too. We send our scout there to check, if Augustus is approaching. The Horse City spot is interesting, but not really easy to connect for now. And we are still in the stage, where we want to settle instead building an army.

It can be important to settle right next the copper as soon as possible.
Let's look: Joao has slavery and thus BW and Augustus not. He is maybe unaware about this Copper tile.

Tech-wise we go for Writing -> Maths -> Currency.

T51:
Augustus is still not approaching, but my scout could be dead now. I was too curious...

T53:
We can make it!

T55:
Well... this may be impossible on a higher difficulty, but here we did it: We blocked Augustus from settling near the copper...

He has still not reached Slavery yet.

At this point we lack definitely in workers, so maybe we build a fourth one before the 4th city. We need enough manpower to chop for the pyramids.

Augustus built the Great Wall. That's the reason he has no second city yet. But let's see what he has inside his BFC. We have Writing, so we may go in...

T56:
Pyramids are ready in 21 turns, optionally in 17 turns. This would be T77 or T73, so I need 3 or 1 chops. But I need to let one cottage unused

So I give my worker the task to build a second mine on the northern PH and our new worker will begin to prechop the forests. When we have Maths, we will finish it.

But wait! We cannot finish Maths in time, our blocking city was too expensive. Because of that I decide for IW first, because:
- IW helps us to estimate, whether Rome can counter horses soon
- IW helps us to build a gem mine for more money (we urgently need more commerce)

So what to do now?
1. Build a second mine, while staying on the cottage
2. Chop one tile
3. After mine is finished, shift to the mine => Pyramids should be finished around ~T72

T58:
OK, Rome can get dangerous:

But still: No Slavery. He may not know about his luck. I need to prepare some axes or maybe I should try an axe rush after finishing the mids?

T59:
Holy ****, there's a barbarian spearman nearby. I nee to focus on archery now. In this case my blocking game was really risky...

T61:
Pyramids are ready in 71, in 10 turns. Let's hope, we survive the barb danger.

View attachment 738189

T65:
Pyramids are finished in 5 turns. We focussed on archery and had the possibility to whip, when danger occurs, so we may have survived the barbarians. Even though they didn't attacked at all. Now a 4th worker is ready soon.
View attachment 738190

T66:
Blocking city is soon ready to build axes and spears. We go for a barracks first so in case we get into danger we can whip out a small army quickly.
View attachment 738191

T67:
Spearman approaching. We go for an axe. When necessary, whip it out, even without a barracks.
View attachment 738192

T70:
Pyramids are ready now. We prepare for settling Production City now. We got some warriors and one archer to counter an eventual barbarian attack. Meanwhile our capital is getting sick because of loss of forests. That's why we invest 3 worker turns and connect the wheat now.

Rome now has a settler and a second city, but where?

Now we change for Representation. Unhappiness will be no problem anymore.


Next plans:
- Whip out the settler for Production city and connect the cities
- Build barracks at every productive city and an army of axes, maybe spears and some swords (+8 units)
- Send the army to Rome, take all the warriors with as cannon fodder
- Get the gems
- Research Mystics -> Alphabet. We need to build research soon, our upkeep is by far too high; Monument is built, after the last planned soldier is ready per city, and in Production City we build it right away.

We met Carthago in the last turns.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Why would anyone build Pyramids?

I assume you don't want to smash someone with a stack of something. That's not your style.

I went builder mode. I squeezed out 5 cities and alphabet by turn 70 with worker stealing (woodsman II). All cities below happiness limit. Only one library.

Pyramids would have done nothing.

Stone wasn't useless. I built a wave of settlers and Hanging Gardens. The great engineers can get you machinery and engineering. Happy rolling over the map.

 

[jorissimo]

Just a couple of points: expansion could have been a bit faster, you usually want 5 cities by T75. I think you should have started the settler at size 3 rather than 4. Also city 2 should have switched to a worker at size 2 and whip it when possible (preferably with the help of a chop). Fog busting could also have been better as I think you realized, sometimes it can be useful to get an additional warrior out by temporarily working a high hammer tile at size 2.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Why would anyone build Pyramids?

I assume you don't want to smash someone with a stack of something. That's not your style.

I went builder mode. I squeezed out 5 cities and alphabet by turn 70 with worker stealing (woodsman II). All cities below happiness limit. Only one library.

Pyramids would have done nothing.

Stone wasn't useless. I built a wave of settlers and Hanging Gardens. The great engineers can get you machinery and engineering. Happy rolling over the map.

Just a couple of points: expansion could have been a bit faster, you usually want 5 cities by T75. I think you should have started the settler at size 3 rather than 4. Also city 2 should have switched to a worker at size 2 and whip it when possible (preferably with the help of a chop). Fog busting could also have been better as I think you realized, sometimes it can be useful to get an additional warrior out by temporarily working a high hammer tile at size 2.

Maybe you two can give us an instructional Showcase to compare the different starts?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

I personally think, the gameplay above was a bit risky and is thus not really instructional for higher difficulty.

The game situation is all-in-all not easy, because neither Copper nor Iron is really near our home cities. We only have horses at a relatively bad place.

I want to restart this from T47 above, where pyramids are not begun already and blocking city wasn't settled. It is an interesting point of the opening. In higher difficulties my approch above is suicide. It needs only one barb axe and the game is over.

_________________

Part 3: Expanding and the pyramids (T40 - T70)

T41:
Pigs are pastured, and our first city has pop 5 now. We go for a second worker now.
View attachment 738173
We need to do the maths about the pyramids: We can get 10 per turn in our capital now, which means 25 turns with stone:
View attachment 738174The stones can be connected around T49. So we are ready in T74 without chopping. One chop saves me 2 turns, so 1 chop is necessary to get the pyramids early enough no other AI has a chance for it, comparing the dates for Immortal here:

M

[BTS] Thread 'Wonderdates'

Apr 6, 2020

I have compiled some statistics from my deity and immortal games. This shows when the AI gets certain wonders and Lib, when I have not. It is standard settings. Fractal and random opponents (6+human). The games are usually played with the Better BUG AI-mod.

• Major Tom
• Replies: 14
• Forum: Civ4 Strategy Articles

• 

We need to take in memory, we need 1 turn revolution, so maybe we should prepare for 2-3 chops.

Until T49 we can do:
- Build a worker 'til T47
- Start a settler and whipping it the right moment can give me ~20 for the pyramids

Result:
We can afford to build one worker and one settler before the mids are started with 200% speed.

T47:
Our second worker is ready, and stone city raised to size 3. It now can fully use 3 good tiles and should contribute in worker production soon. Note, how we switched the capital to the -tiles and the stone-city use the cottages to contribute as helper-city. We plan to finish the warrior in Stone City same turn, when it raises to size 4. Thenafter it can build workers and settlers. The savefile is attached.
View attachment 738175

We found Joao in the South:
View attachment 738177
Remark: Augustus and Joao don't know each other yet.

We restart here and think about, how this game could be played for a secure victory, even at higher difficulty.

For now we research BW and finish it at T48. This is rather late, but we have everything for the pyramids now and good chances to get it, when we remember, that at Immortal Pyramids are build at earliest in T72.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 3, version B: Expanding and the pyramids (T40-T70)

T47:
We will build a worker and a settler in our capital before switching to pyramids. Let's see, where copper is...

T49:
We see, that copper is out of our range for now:

But we finished our third cottage and can build a wall effectively, when danger approaches because of the stones.

We switched for slavery and tech for archery now. IW would be interesting too, but on higher levels we could be attacked before we know about Iron. And when Iron is too far away, we are dead. Horses could save us, but take too long.

T51:
We are on a minor decision point: Cottaging or roading?
We need ~5 turns for the next settler (chopping calculated already in) and 5 turns for next worker, built in Stone City.
Our next priority is to settle the horses. Rome may need some time for getting spears, so it can be interesting to pursue an immortal rush instead of connecting copper. En plus we build an effective defence against barbarians. For now we only need Writing and maybe IW for analyzing Romes strengths, so we don't need to tech urgently. Thus our worker will connect the Horse City spot and not build more cottages. Our 3 cottages will suffice for our research attempts for now.

T53:
We remember in using -tiles instead of -tiles for producing settlers. The city popped, so we can start pasturing the sheep to give Horse City an improved food resource right at start.

Writing is ready in 6.

T54:
We whip our settler right away, so we can found our new city 3 turns earlier. We need 4 turns to regrow without Granary - so we should use the overflow for the granary now. We need to rethink priority of pyramids.

Building Pyramids:
According to the Wonderdate-thread at Immortal Pyramids are built between T72 and T114, medium T88.
The pyramids give a good amount of commerce for specialist-users and happiness. Specialists are used in cities with plenty of food, like Horse City and maybe our capital. We talk about 12 per turn after libraries are built.
But: We want to build out an army, so pyramids are not really important for now, because it effects only things much later. Failgold is additionally not that bad, so it is okay, when we adress the finishing-date for T85 after we built some military infrastructure and units.

T57:
Third city is founded directly south of the horses, and connected next turn. Stone city builds a settler and is finished in 6. So we need a street on the hill leading to production city in 7 turns.
Going full effort to pyramids now would take 28 turns without chopping, means we are at T85 for now. An additional mine and some chops make it earlier, so maybe building barracks before and 1-2 units is okay.

Augustus still hasn't expanded:

Maybe he has no copper? Yea, he still has no slavery yet...

T58:
There's spearman around. Let's build an archer now. The spear can reach my Horse city in 4 turns, so it may be urgent...
I let Stone city build another warrior, which is finished in 1. Capital should build an archer, which is finished in 2 after the chop.

Thenafter we will observe, where the spearman wants to move now. These defence should suffice for now until we have Immortals. Horses ready in 3.

T60:
We sacrificed a warrior in the forests to block the spearman, and he has only 1.3 strength remaining. OK, so we got some more time.
Capital builds an immortal and should thenafter switch to pyramids. For now I don't need to decide this, because the city still needs to regrow.

We opened borders to Augustus, so let's see what he has.

T62:
Flatland and great production. That looks juicy. And still no Slavery yet. Maybe I should send 4-5 Immortals and pursue military instead of pyramids?

T63:
OK, Augustus has copper. So when we attack, we could face spears... how many Immortals do we need for a walled spear?

Immortal has 4 plus 10%, thus 4.4 or maybe chance to retreat.
A spearman has 4 plus 100% plus city defence with walls 50% and entrenchment 25%, thus 11.

So we should calculate with 3. Archer needs maybe 2, warrior 1, so I prepare attack with minimum 8, and we need some with melee attack bonus...

In 7 turns I know, whether I have Iron. If so, swords should do the job for spears.

T65:
Production City is founded. Barracks in Horse City and capital are ready. We stop settling now and work out 8 immortals. Next city shall be settled near Iron or copper. Now we chop/whip our army.

We build a road towards the copper spot. Maybe we settle even there, and then we don't need to attack immediately.

T67:
3 Immortals ready, next 2 in 3 turns. We begin to stop the barbs around. Because when a barrack-built Immortal kills one barb, this gives us +1XP, which gives us +25% melee attack we stop fogbusting now. We need barbs!

T68:
First Immortal with +25% against melee. And Rome seems to place his cities on bad spots.Let's observe, whether he builds another settler. We should place a city at our spot now.

T69:
Rome has a working boat more and he has the copper mine now. This is not really a military focus.
The pyramids would be ready in 20 turns without chops. So we could make it to T88.

In higher difficulties we could not get both: Rome and the pyramids. So we need to decide. But getting the juicy land of Rome and his marble outweights the pyramids definitely. So the decision is clear: We build the pyramids after the war for failgold.

But before attacking we settle our marked copper & gem spot.

T70:
We have 5 Immortals and next turn 2 more. Settler for Copper-gem-city should be ready in 2 turns, got by whipping.

T72:
We have 7 Immortals and 2 more next turn. We go for mystics now to expand the northern border to the pelt. It seems, we can attack soon with 11+ immortals.

Iron is here:

We should settle there too, but this will cripple our eco completely. Even now we have a big upkeep.

Our way to Alpha will be hard... but maybe Rome gives us some money...
I set a save here.

T74:
Now we have more than enough (and expensive Immortals). Our capital starts to build pyramids. It will be finished around T95, when chopped, maybe earlier. Maybe it is failgold. In this case we can repair our eco.

T75:
Mystics ready, we go for connecting the pelt in some turns. Alpha needs 27 turns with 4 cities... it is too expensive for now, but we can send in our immortals soon.

T76:
The fifth Worker will be on his way. We need to cottage our floodplains now. Alpha could be finished in 33. 11 Immortals are ready.

Rome has 3 axes, but 0 spears and no walls. Well... it's time to go in.

Pyramids should be ready in T90.

T79:
We declare now. He has no chance:

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The point is I am not building The Pyramids on this map on any difficulty level.

If you're concerned about barbarians and early attacks, then just settle the sheep-horse-corn spot as your first expansion.

It's a bit far but strategic resource is a valid reason. Sheep and horse gives 1 commerce each, you can crawl your way to pottery.

 

[jorissimo]

Maybe you two can give us an instructional Showcase to compare the different starts?

Maybe if I have time but can't promise

Part 3, version B: Expanding and the pyramids (T40-T70)

This is again too slow IMHO. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see a settler on its way. You really want 3 cities by around T50. For barbs remember it's Prince, you just need more warriors and even scouts, that area to the west can be fog busted with just a couple of units.

Edit: I feel like Persepolis might have too slow growth with just a dry wheat and fps. It could be worth it to farm one of the fps early.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

T79:

T80:

Rome is gone now.

Pyras should be ready in 10 turns. With a library we can get a base 15 after Representation. Our eco is unavailable to research anything now, so building libraries and using scientists is top priority.

Next goals:
- Delete Warriors and lower the upkeep costs
- Connect the gems and maybe the pelt
- Raise to minimum 8 workers
- Build 2-3 libraries and use some scientists
- Research Fishing and maybe Sailing, and finally Alphabet

- Find the other civs and a sea-way to them to make trade possible (potentially +7 )
- Analyze Joao and find his weak spots (he would make a good vassal for sure)
- Examine, whether we can afford another city to secure the Iron in the south

We give a savefile now.

T85:
Horse-City popped and the gems near Copper-Gem-City are free. Pyras are hurried and finished next turn. After that we go for a library. Still no other civ has Alpha yet. We found the sea-way near a city of Carthago and Joao. Unit upkeep is only 2 anymore because of deleting and we begin to explore the eastern coast now.

T88:
The other civs doesn't have connected the seas and rivers for trade yet. Alpha could be finished. We build in our cities:

Granary -> Every city
Monument -> Border cities or cities with low happiness
Library -> Cities, wich produce 5+

Alpha should be ready in 9 turns. No AI (and I know every) has it already.

T94:
The first AI has Alpha, 3 turns before I could get it. I scouted Joao so far. 3 of his cities are on flatland, and they have a rather big gap in between. So an early attack could be interesting here. I want to prepare catas here or maybe some Immortals (more than 15). So I set my most productive cities to Military production again after we got libraries.

Note, that thanks to Representation we have 110 at 100% and 54 sustainable.

We give a savefile again.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Maybe if I have time but can't promise

This is again too slow IMHO. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see a settler on its way. You really want 3 cities by around T50. For barbs remember it's Prince, you just need more warriors and even scouts, that area to the west can be fog busted with just a couple of units.

Edit: I feel like Persepolis might have too slow growth with just a dry wheat and fps. It could be worth it to farm one of the fps early.

To build an instructional example, I wanted to do only things, which would work in harder difficulties too. So assuming that there are only weak barbs is something which would be too risky.

For now I get the feeling, this game can get trivial now from T90.


Remark for OP:
Your main lesson to learn next should be to create an early attack. On higher difficulties it must be your priority to take out one neighbor rather early to get a position, where you equalize and conquer tech lead next because of a bigger size. It is possible to get equal tech in Monarch in Classical and in Emperor in Medieval by this method.
I would suggest to replay the game and build military and early economy similarly. Try to accomplish the same result at T100 or earlier. You can even try to not build pyramids and just focus on early military.

 

[jorissimo]

To build an instructional example, I wanted to do only things, which would work in harder difficulties too. So assuming that there are only weak barbs is something which would be too risky.

If anything, fogbusting is even more important on higher difficulties. But it will be easier here.

 

[keyboard-rider]

I should probably keep better watch for helper cities. I did recognize the significance of Stone, but not its proximity would signify a great helper city. I just earmarked it to build Mids by default. Hmm.

Note also, that actually you research something, which has no direct use. AH gives you nothing for now.

AH enables growth in my third planned city. Out of curiosity, what would you have researched instead?

You have plenty of roads, but not every road has a use for now. The road in the southeast of the river has no use at all. Wouldn't it be better to build a cottage?

I had some turns where the Worker had nothing to do. So, I thought it is better to pre-build that road to the next city.

So is it really focussed enough to build your second city there and not directly near the stones? We have only 33 turns left, until the first AIs could complete the pyramids...

I think the plan was to get an early city up that does not need so much research to get started - Pigs needs AH, Stone needs Mining and Masonry, that spot just needed Agriculture, which I already started with, plus Pottery to cottage the FP. This ties back into not recognizing that the Stone city is a great helper city, so better to go for earlier.

I can't see your T61-T67 attachments. Are you sure they transferred successfully?

Edit: I feel like Persepolis might have too slow growth with just a dry wheat and fps. It could be worth it to farm one of the fps early.

How much food would you say is "enough" for the early needs of a capital?

I tried replaying the first ~100 turns, first with BW first, then with Pottery first.

With BW, I chopped two Forests to get the first Settler out. I lucked out, because I found a ruin next to the Barb town close to Augustus when attacking him - the Barb town probably took it out somehow. Or, some Barb did, and the Barb town spawned later, not sure.

With Pottery first, Augustus already had a Spearman and four cities, which surprised me, so the war dragged on a bit longer than expected. Also, I had to raze Neapolis, as my finances were not very good.

I should probably have scouted better on both attempts.

 

[jorissimo]

How much food would you say is "enough" for the early needs of a capital?

I can't put a number on it, but one dry wheat doesn't feel like much, even with the floodplains.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

I should probably keep better watch for helper cities. I did recognize the significance of Stone, but not its proximity would signify a great helper city. I just earmarked it to build Mids by default. Hmm.

Definitely. Your second city should share several tiles with your first, at best those tiles, which are already developed.

AH enables growth in my third planned city. Out of curiosity, what would you have researched instead?

Yea, I see. I think, it was the best choice at this moment. The argument shows primarely, that your research and your city-development is not matched in time. This way you lose some turns.

I had some turns where the Worker had nothing to do. So, I thought it is better to pre-build that road to the next city.

Yea, that was again the best possible choice here. So all in all many relatively weak moves are forced by the fact, that the research wasn't focussed enough. I think, researching Mining as second was the main mistake.

I think the plan was to get an early city up that does not need so much research to get started - Pigs needs AH, Stone needs Mining and Masonry, that spot just needed Agriculture, which I already started with, plus Pottery to cottage the FP. This ties back into not recognizing that the Stone city is a great helper city, so better to go for earlier.

You can calculate or estimate the needed time for an improvement in this game-stage.
The city at the stone-spot doesn't really need the stone, when it can use floodplains meanwhile. And it shares more tiles with the capital, so working the floodplain-cottages is great for this game-stage. Even without stone and pyramids this strategy works out.

I can't see your T61-T67 attachments. Are you sure they transferred successfully?

I deleted 'em by accident, sorry.

How much food would you say is "enough" for the early needs of a capital?

This depends. When ur capital is primarely a production city, you may go for this and don't whip too much. If your capital has plenty of food, you can whip more. All in all in both cases you want to expand quickly to a second city spot.

I tried replaying the first ~100 turns, first with BW first, then with Pottery first.

With BW, I chopped two Forests to get the first Settler out. I lucked out, because I found a ruin next to the Barb town close to Augustus when attacking him - the Barb town probably took it out somehow. Or, some Barb did, and the Barb town spawned later, not sure.

With Pottery first, Augustus already had a Spearman and four cities, which surprised me, so the war dragged on a bit longer than expected. Also, I had to raze Neapolis, as my finances were not very good.

One spear can be beaten by 3 Immortals behind city walls. Just attack with more units and you will make it.
All in all my gut feeling says, going for Pottery first and thenafter BW is a good choice. The additional commerce is +20% research, which shortens the way to BW significantly, while directly going for BW contributes nothing for science. And science was a major bottleneck here.

I should probably have scouted better on both attempts.

Definitely. You need to know your enemy: Strategic resources, techs, units, transportation. This is why Writing is an important tech for early military.

Maybe we should play a second game together? You definitely can try Monarch level.

 

[jorissimo]

All in all my gut feeling says, going for Pottery first and thenafter BW is a good choice.

I would have to calculate it but my gut feeling says BW before Pottery like others have pointed out. You don't really want to be working cottages too early, you want to focus on growth and expansion. If you settle 3 connected cities close to the capital your maintenance should be low. It's fine to start laying down cottages around that time. TW before BW I think so it's done by the time we're ready to settle city 2. I would say something like Mining (maybe build a ph mine to speed up settlers, Imperialistic only gives a bonus to hammers), TW, BW, Pottery. AH only after that (assuming we don't know about the horses). Settler at size 2 could be interesting working a farm and the forested ph. Maybe building a ph mine right after the first farm could be worthwhile to speed up the settler?

 

[jorissimo]

AH enables growth in my third planned city. Out of curiosity, what would you have researched instead?

On the higher levels you kind of need to think "is there any early tech I can skip"? In this case we can delay AH, as the capital doesn't need it and a second city can be built near the corn. Even if we settle the stone city third, it can grow on some unworked fps initially, maybe take a farm from the cap for a bit, and we shouldn't go out of our way to research it early, before key techs like BW and Pottery, just for one resource.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

I would have to calculate it but my gut feeling says BW before Pottery like others have pointed out. You don't really want to be working cottages too early, you want to focus on growth and expansion. If you settle 3 connected cities close to the capital your maintenance should be low. It's fine to start laying down cottages around that time. TW before BW I think so it's done by the time we're ready to settle city 2. I would say something like Mining (maybe build a ph mine to speed up settlers, Imperialistic only gives a bonus to hammers), TW, BW, Pottery. AH only after that (assuming we don't know about the horses). Settler at size 2 could be interesting working a farm and the forested ph. Maybe building a ph mine right after the first farm could be worthwhile to speed up the settler?

Instead of calculaing, what about playing it out?
You can compare the games here.

On the higher levels you kind of need to think "is there any early tech I can skip"? In this case we can delay AH, as the capital doesn't need it and a second city can be built near the corn. Even if we settle the stone city third, it can grow on some unworked fps initially, maybe take a farm from the cap for a bit, and we shouldn't go out of our way to research it early, before key techs like BW and Pottery, just for one resource.

There's another important reason for AH:
As Persians it is a decisive information for our path of game to know, whether there are horses nearby. Assuming, we have horses near our capital, we play in a complete different manner in aspects of copper/iron and we would maybe settle at other spots.

Even as another civ the information, whether we can build early cavalry may be important. So delaying AH is not really an option. En plus we have 2 food resources nearby we can connect for next cities.

 

[jorissimo]

Instead of calculaing, what about playing it out?

If I find the time.

There's another important reason for AH:
As Persians it is a decisive information for our path of game to know, whether there are horses nearby.

That's not true. You need to play the map, not the leader/civ. On Prince maybe, but on the higher levels it's a huge gamble to delay something like BW or Pottery just because you may find horses. It could literally cost you the game. And if you do find horses, an immortal rush might not even be the best play (no close neighbors, land to settle) nor guaranteed to be successful.

 

[jorissimo]

T46

Spoiler :

Didn't play this super optimally, wasted some time along the way (putting 1 turn into a farm on the wrong fp, forgetting to up the slider so AH should have been done a loong time ago), but it's about the idea.

Right now I have:
- BW, Pottery, AH (virtual)
- 3 cities
- 5 pop
- 3 workers, 1 scout, 3 warriors
- 2 farms, 1 mine, 2 roads, 1 cottage
- 18 bpt at 100%

Admittedly, Susa could have been 1S for the Mids, but in its current location it shares better and needs only 1 road.

I started by farming the wheat, mining the ph, then chopping 1 forest into a settler. Capital went worker, warrior, settler at size 2 working the farm and the mine. The final chop shaved off a turn or 2 with overflow, which I put into a worker (just 1 turn). Then switched to warriors and grew to size 3, after which I went worker - settler. After chopping into settler 1, worker 1 sent to improve Pasargadae's corn (wasted 1 turn walking towards it because I forgot to cancel or smth). Then it roaded the tile to connect the capital to the river, putting a turn into something I can't remember. City 2 went warrior until size 2, then switched to worker and whipped in when halfway done. The capital had built a second worker in the meantime and then all 3 of them started cottaging, roading to city 3, and farming a floodplain for Persepolis, as well as starting to chop into the capital. If I hadn't forgotten to put the slider back up I would have sent 1 or 2 to pasture the pig.

Basically, it's Prince, so you can get all of the techs you want and not crash, but I think this is the optimal way of playing (in spite of the micro mistakes).

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

T46

Didn't play this super optimally, wasted some time along the way (putting 1 turn into a farm on the wrong fp, forgetting to up the slider so AH should have been done a loong time ago), but it's about the idea.

Right now I have:
- BW, Pottery, AH (virtual)
- 3 cities
- 5 pop
- 3 workers, 1 scout, 3 warriors
- 2 farms, 1 mine, 2 roads, 1 cottage
- 18 bpt at 100%

Admittedly, Susa could have been 1S for the Mids, but in its current location it shares better and needs only 1 road.

Great, thank you. Can you please compare our two approaches in demographics?
I would assume, the Pottery start is ~12 turns behind in city building, but significantly further ahead in population, production and science.

I would personally think, that progressing into the mids could be a trap, but when we have it, we will develop significantly fast when libraries are built. So I would assume, that you will make progress quicker before T100, but after that your game should be a little bit slower, because of the breaking economy.

On a wider view we can learn about this comparison, when it is a good choice to delay BW for Pottery and when it is better to do it not. Personally I would like to replay the game on a higher difficulty like Immortal. Anyone knows how to change it?